Spinal Problems In Greyhounds

[jetcitywoman]

I have a weird thing going on with my dogs that I need to call on the power of Greytalk for. First the background:

 

A few weeks ago Capri started yelping when she tried to get up from laying down, and when she put her head down to eat. It took us a while to figure out where the pain was, couldn't tell if it was in the back leg, front leg, back... After a couple of vet visits and being treated with anti-inflammatories, antibiotics, and pain killers the current theory is this: she has some sort of spine problem. Her blood chem is consistently in the low positive range for rocky mountain spotted fever, but she doesn't have any other symptoms of that (fever, etc). She's got sore spots in three places along her neck and back. Xrays showed nothing, we're going to have her MRI'ed to check for meningitis or any other spinal problems next week. (We do keep up on her frontline and intercepter, year round because we live in Lyme Disease Central.)

 

But that's not what I want to ask you about. Well, not entirely. Here is the REAL mystery: Suddenly today, Ajax is having pain whenever he puts his head down. He yelps when he reaches down to bite a stuffy, and on our walk he couldn't touch the ground with his nose (which is his favorite way to smell the world; smelling and tasting the grass). WTH??? Has he caught whatever problem she has?

 

So based on the combined decades of greyhound experience that you all have, does any of this ring any bells:

 

• 
   
  
• neck and back pain when bending/moving
  
• responds to antibiotics, pain killers, and anti-inflammatories but comes back after the treatment ends
  
• affects all dogs in the home
  
• dog is happy and fine except for pain when moving in certain ways
  
• no fever, eating and drinking fine, no diarhea or other stool problems
  
• might be disguised as a low positive result for rocky mountain spotted fever
  

[KF_in_Georgia]

• 
   
  
• neck and back pain when bending/moving: yes.
  
• responds to antibiotics, pain killers, and anti-inflammatories but comes back after the treatment ends: yes; didn't try antibiotics, but have successfully used methocarbamol (muscle relaxer) and meloxicam (pain reliever for osteo-arthritis).
  
• affects all dogs in the home: no.
  
• dog is happy and fine except for pain when moving in certain ways: yes.
  
• no fever, eating and drinking fine, no diarrhea or other stool problems: yes, no other problems going on.
  
• might be disguised as a low positive result for rocky mountain spotted fever: no, but here in Georgia, I think RMSF would be an unusual diagnosis.
  

 

You didn't say how old your guys are. My Sam is 11+. His x-rays show spinal arthritis. A chiropractor's adjustment was helpful for a short time, but the pain came back abruptly--on a Friday, when I had no way to get him to the chiropractor for days. My vet got me a prescription for methocarbamol and meloxicam, both of which can be filled at the corner Walgreens.

 

When Sam's having problems, he has trouble getting up and lying down. If he's lying on his side and tries to get up, he yelps when he raises his head. Raising his food dish has been helpful. He's a bad candidate for a harness because he's quick to back out of it. These days, he gets one methocarbamol every morning; a repeat in the evening if he seems to need it. He's taken very little of the meloxicam; that one has lots of cautions and warnings, and we save that for really-in-pain rather than a-little-achey. For Sam, if his back is bothering him, he shakes as if he has water in his coat; if he "clamps down" on the shake quickly, then it's time for meloxicam.

 

P.S. Sam's pain is in two areas of his spine. His worst pain is at the withers--right behind his shoulder blades. Sometimes the area actually is warm to the touch. He also has some lower-lumbar pain at times--down his spine, just about in line with his hips. When the chiropractor adjusted him (on two visits), Sam screamed bloody murder. For the lumbar-area adjustment, he came off the ground and landed facing the doctor, stretched out at the end of his leash. It's the closest I've ever seen him come to wanting to bite someone. But he let her go back to work and by the end of the session he was moving well. At home that night, he slept curled up like a cat--something he hadn't done for quite a while.

Edited July 9, 2011 by KF_in_Georgia

[kudzu]

When I first adopted my girly Grey she wouldn't bend down to drink or eat from a bowl unless very desperate. That suddenly changed after being treated with doxy for suspected Lyme. The suspicion had nothing to do with her eating or drinking habits. It was a surprise that she suddenly quit caring about bowl placement after her 6 wks of doxy were up. Go figure.

 

What you described at first reminded me of my dogs with neck problems. They were not living here at the same time & in both cases it responded to acupuncture & chiro adjustment. No anti-b's were necessary.

 

Hard to say but my temptation is to suspect Lyme or some other TBD. But what the heck do I know. Maybe Ajax is having the spinal equivalent of sympathy pains. I sure hope these can be quickly resolved. It's bad enough having one but two with these troubles... EEK

[jetcitywoman]

I knew I'd forget some important details, sorry. Capri is only 7 and Ajax is 5. It does sound kind of like arthritis, but they're so young.

 

When it was just Capri having the problem, I thought of trying a chiro, but haven't yet. But now that Ajax is doing the same thing, I'm worried about what other kinds of things could be causing it. Something they've both gotten into like poisons or parasites. They could both have Lyme, I suppose, but Capri tested negative for it. We're taking Ajax to the vet tomorrow. They're both hobbling up the stairs like ancient doggies. Very sad!

[KF_in_Georgia]

The chiropractor was immediately helpful for Sam (both visits, each visit targeting a different part of his spine). It just didn't give long-lasting relief, and I needed something that could be effective on short notice. (The chiropractor is about 90 miles away, and matching my schedule to hers was not always possible.)

 

But be sure you have good spinal x-rays--neck, upper spine and lower spine--before you let a chiropractor work on Capri and/or Ajax. Before you let someone start tweaking vertebrae, you want to be sure there's nothing like a disc or nerve anomaly causing a problem. In Sam's case, I took his x-rays to the chiropractor, who pointed out bone problems my vet didn't see. The chiropractor wrote out a report of what she saw and gave me a copy to return to my vet, along with the x-rays. This chiropractor works a lot on agility dogs, and she was recommended to me by a friend whose dogs do agility. My vet had no idea of who to recommend, and the woman we went to (nearly a two-hour drive each way--from my place outside Atlanta, it's halfway to South Carolina!) may be the only canine chiropractor in all of north Georgia.

 

P.S. Either of your dogs--or both--could just have a minor spinal problem the chiropractor could adjust--and they'd be fine. It doesn't have to be arthritis to give them the same symptoms Sam displays which his arthritis flares up. And muscle relaxers aren't normally useful for arthritis, I think, but they help for spinal arthritis when the back pain is causing Sam to tense up his muscles.

Edited July 9, 2011 by KF_in_Georgia

[Pippin]

KF - there's a canine chiropractor at Bells Ferry Veterinary Hospital, and a canine acupuncturist/chiropractor on Johnson Ferry. You also have a very grey-savvy vet right there in Marietta -- she's on Lower Roswell.

 

The BFVH chiropractor is only there on Wednesday afternoons, but she's good. When I was taking Casey there in 2009 (she has LS), it was $40/visit.

 

The Johnson Ferry place just opened last Feb, and I've not been there. It's GA Veterinary Rehabilitation. They do swim therapy as well. Their website is GAVetRehab.com, and the practice owner studied at OSU, according to the brochure. No idea what their prices are.

[jetcitywoman]

I have arthritis and vertebra problems, so I personally avoid chiro's. However, DH goes to them sometimes. For us, I think it would be a last effort to solve the problem. I'd probably try acupuncture first. But definitely, we're working the vet "standard" medicine route first because we don't want to just treat symptoms, we want to know what's causing it. Just with an exam and xrays, the neurologist gave us three possibilities: ruptured disks, tumors in the spine, or inflammatory disease. The MRI on Monday is to try to resolve those possibilities down to a precise diagnosis.

 

Another thing that occurred to me is that maybe running up and down the stairs all the time is injuring them. I assumed that healthy young dogs could do that without injuring themselves as long as they didn't fall down. But maybe that's not true. Our stairs are carpeted, interior, and not especially steep. However, we do have two flights that the whole family uses on a daily basis. Limiting the dogs to only one floor of the house would be extremely confining because of the way our house is designed. Living areas and kitchen on ground floor, bedrooms upstairs, tv room in the basement. Anybody here with lots of stairs in their home experience developing back problems in their houndies?

[Pippin]

I lived in a 2-story townhome, and it didn't impact my dogs at all (2 greys and an IG). My Angie-girl had arthritis in her hips, so it reached the point where stairs were more than she could handle, but the stairs didn't cause any problems.

 

That said, if your hounds have problems, the stairs could exacerbate them, but I've never heard of stairs causing problems.

[Batmom]

Her blood chem is consistently in the low positive range for rocky mountain spotted fever,

 

Did she have a tick disease test?

[jetcitywoman]

A relative posted this to Facebook for us. I had heard that greyhounds don't tend to have back problem (compared to other long-spined breeds like doxies). Opinions?

 

Dr. Julia Carter, DVM

While Greyhounds as a breed tend not to suffer

from the arthritic degeneration of the hips which

other large breed dogs are prone, they do appear to

have a higher than average incidence of spondylosis deformans, or arthritis of the spine. In this

condition, bony spurs called osteophytes form

around the ends of vertebral segments, as if trying

to bridge the disc space. This occurs particularly in

the lumbar vertebrae (the lower back, behind the

ribs).

This is due primarily to two factors. First, the

segments of the spine associated with the ribs are

supported by a connective tissue band that runs

from the top of the rib on one side of the body to the

top of the same rib on the other side. The band of

connective tissue acts to stabilize that spinal segment and the associated intervertebral disc, making

the thoracic spine much less susceptible to degeneration. Second, the lower back of Greyhounds is

subject to tremendous strain in flexion and extension during racing, as the back arches and flexes to

extend the length of the stride. This predisposes

Greyhounds to premature degeneration of the discs

between the vertebral space by trying to stabilize

that space with new bone, creating osteophytes.

As a result, Greyhounds from middle to old age

commonly have pain along their lower back, loss of

muscle tone to the hind legs, and weakness or loss

of neurologic function to the hind legs. The

Greyhound’s human companion may describe this

as an unwillingness to go up or down stairs, get up

on the couch, or jump into the car. Alternatively,

wobbly hind legs, occasional stumbles and falls,

particularly with the rear end going down, or scuffing

and toe dragging of the hind feet are other manifestations of spondylosis.

Veterinarians diagnose spondylosis by outlining a

history of hind limb disability, by physical exam of

lower back pain, observing muscle wasting in the

hind limbs, and by noting scuffed rear toenails and/

or loss of the dog’s knowledge of its hind feet and

their position in space. This is called conscious

proprioception. A simple test for this reflex is done

by supporting the dog’s weight while turning the first

one, then the other hind foot over so the tops of the

toes are in contact with the ground. Normally, dogs

will immediately correct this abnormal stance.

Radiographs (x-ray images) of the spine are also

critical to confirm spondylosis deformans, as well as

gauge its severity, and pinpoint, the vertebral

segments that are involved. In severe cases, where

there may be compression of the spinal cord or

nerve roots by osteophytes, a myelogram may be

recommended to isolate the area of compression. A

myelogram is a radiograph taken after dye has been

injected into the space around the spinal cord.

Surgical decompression may be required to return

nerve function to the hind limbs.

In most cases, treatment is a matter of adequate

management of the individual greyhound’s disability,

as there is currently no way to reverse the effects of

spondulosis deformans. Anti-inflammatory agents

such as aspirin, Rimadyl, Etogesic and glucocorticoid steroids can offer significant pain relief and

increased mobility to dogs with relatively mild

degenerative changes. Nutriceuticals such as the

chondroiten sulfates, glcosaminoglycans, oerna

mussel, and shark cartilage can increase viscosity

of the small amount of synovial fluid that exists

within the intervertebral spaces, as well as increasing the health of cartilage covering each vertebral

segment. This can slow the continued degeneration

of the joint and give comfort and greater mobility to

the dog, but oral forms of these compounds take a

long time to achieve an effect – perhaps as long as

six weeks or more. There is an injectable form of

glucosaminoglycans called Adequan that takes

effect more quickly and is widely used in performance horses.

In older dogs with significant loss of muscle mass in

the hind limbs, and associated weakness and

falling, anabolic steroids are sometimes used to

help maintain muscle mass and strength. Anabolic

steroids, however, can also increase the mass of

the heart muscle, sometimes to the point of disease,

and so must be used with care.

Finally, some dogs with spondylosis deformans

achieve pain relief and increased mobility with the

use of acupuncture. In my experience, the most

improvement is seen in dogs with mild to moderate

disability, while those individuals with severe muscle

wasting or loss of nerve function to the hind limbs

respond less dramatically.

Keep your greyhound on Glucosamine HCL. The best chance of

seeing a change in your dog’s arthritic condition is to give 1500 mg a

day for at least two months. If after two months you see improvement, then go to a lesser dose of around 1000 mg.

 

Her blood chem is consistently in the low positive range for rocky mountain spotted fever,

 

Did she have a tick disease test?

 

Yep, that's what's showing the low pos on the rmsf.

[KF_in_Georgia]

KF - there's a canine chiropractor at Bells Ferry Veterinary Hospital, and a canine acupuncturist/chiropractor on Johnson Ferry. You also have a very grey-savvy vet right there in Marietta -- she's on Lower Roswell.

 

The BFVH chiropractor is only there on Wednesday afternoons, but she's good. When I was taking Casey there in 2009 (she has LS), it was $40/visit.

 

The Johnson Ferry place just opened last Feb, and I've not been there. It's GA Veterinary Rehabilitation. They do swim therapy as well. Their website is GAVetRehab.com, and the practice owner studied at OSU, according to the brochure. No idea what their prices are.

 

Mary, thanks for this info. I've saved a copy of it.

 

 

And jetcitywoman, thanks for the info from Dr Clark. I'm saving a copy of it, too. It doesn't entirely sound like Sam: he never raced, and when my vet checks his back feet, Sam flips them back over instantly. And Sam's been on glucosamine supplements (1500mg/day) for years; the supplements might have kept him this healthy this long...but there's actually never been any indication that they've helped, and when I've run out for a couple of months or so, I've never really noticed a difference. I eventually put him (and Jacey and me) back on the pills--just in case.

[JJNg]

A relative posted this to Facebook for us. I had heard that greyhounds don't tend to have back problem (compared to other long-spined breeds like doxies). Opinions?

The back problem that doxies and other long-backed breeds get is intervertebral disc disease, where the discs bulge or rupture and compress the spinal cord. Dr. Carter is talking about a different condition, spondylosis deformans, which is arthritis of the spine. This can be seen in any breed, although probably more in the larger dogs. Another back problem seen in greyhounds is lumbosacral stenosis.

 

Spondylosis deformans is usually very obvious on x-rays. I've also found that with chronic, slowly progressive conditions like arthritis, most dogs show more subtle signs - like a gradual decrease in activity, reluctance to do stairs, difficulty rising. Most dogs with arthritis never yelp or cry out in pain. IME, dogs typically yelp/cry due to acute pain, not chronic. Acute pain can be due to a compressed disc, pinched nerve, inflammatory process, new injury, or even aggravation of a chronic condition.

 

With both of your dogs showing similar signs, especially with both of them being fairly young, I'd be suspicious of an infectious cause (like TBD), but it could also be an odd coincidence. Hoping you'll get some answers next week.

[jetcitywoman]

Thanks everyone. We took Ajax to the vet yesterday and he seemed fine but we're doing a tick panel.

 

Another thing I noticed finally is that both dogs seem generally better (less painful) in the mornings and generally worse in the evenings. Again, I don't know what that means, but it's similar to the periodic symptom increase/decrease you get with arthritis. They also seem better after a walk, and worse after they've been napping for a few hours.

[jetcitywoman]

Well, so the mri came out clean. She has no signs of arthrits or injury, one slight bulge between two cervical vertebra. Her spinal fluid is also clean. So... : They want us to keep her on pain meds and restricted activity for a couple weeks, and to switch her to a harness for walking.

 

I know lots of gt'ers use harnesses, so you all will know. Capri doesnt pull on the leash, so i dont need any special control over her. Do you all recommend a general purpose harness that comfy for her to wear and looks nice?

[Newgreymom]

The same thing happened to Dylan and the only thing that helped was IV of Methocarbamol (sp). He was in the ER with the IV's and then came home with the pills and some Rimadyl. It truly helped. I would defintely have a full TB panel ran on both and maybe try Doxy and just see if it helps...Just a thought...