Osteo Thread

[NeylasMom]

Our hound Trip was diagnosed with osteo this afternoon. It is truely devastating.

I'm so sorry.

 

For both Trip and Ward, please think about adding in Gabapentin before moving to the Fentanyl patch. Gabapentin, like Tramadol, really has no side effects aside from the possibility of drowsiness/wooziness at higher doses and the dosage can go quite high. Many of us have seen considerably improvement when Gabapentin was added. I think Fentanyl, since it is an opiate, carries more risks of side effects like nausea, being more sedated, etc. FYI if you do decide to try Gabapentin, I've seen vets recommend some very low starting doses. While I do think it's important to start lower and work your way up, just be aware that the max dose even in conjunction with Tramadol and an NSAID is quite high. For Neyla, at 55 lbs, she could have 500 mg 3x/day. We stuck with 300 mg 3x/day b/c at higher doses I saw a little bit of dizziness.

 

Kari, aren't you also doing supplements in addition to meds? I would actually suspect an herbal supplement before I would the meds unless the diarrhea has been going on since you started the NSAID. I really like the Metamucil wafers myself - they've seemed to work quite well for our fosters. You could do Flagyl, but I personally would leave that as a last resort. If you add flagyl, you're adding yet another medication and there are some who feel that flagyl may contribute to cancer growth/issues. I have NO idea how well researched that belief is, but I've seen it shared on the cancer boards for what it's worth.

[RedFawnMom]

I'm sorry to hear about Trip

 

 

Anyone have suggestions on what to give for big d? Can't be pumpkin, pill would be better

Not sure which medication is causing is. I don't think it's the tramadol since he's been on that before

 

Have you tried adding rice or oatmeal to his food?

[Batmom]

Don't know about Gabapentin. Haven't had a dog get the runs on Tramadol but have never given it long-term. HAVE had dogs get the runs on Meloxicam .

[lovinggreysslp]

Thanks Jen for the information on Gabapentin. Our vet did not mention this as an option but I will certainly talk to her about it. I don't think the patch would be a great option because Trip is a huge licker. I just want to keep a running list of options.

I am so gratefull that Trip has been yelpfree since last night. The pain meds must be helping becauce I am getting tail wags, eagerness to get up and about and great appetite. The only thing I have to be careful about is the other hounds jostling him.

[brindlebaby]

I am so sickened to hear of the new cases of osteo on here. I think the first week we were in shock, everything was happening so fast. My heart goes out to all these families devastated by this.

 

 

Callie had her bandage and staples removed on Wednesday. Her incision wasn’t as shocking to me as I was expecting (well maybe just for a teeny second seeing her walk out to us in the lobby from back in the exam room). I think the surgeon did a really good job.

We heard from the hospital this morning that OSU will be sending out the chemo drugs on Monday. Our plan is to have Callie’s first treatment on Friday morning. I’m very relieved that this next step is about to start, I was nervous that we weren’t moving fast enough.

 

From reading online and the experiences others have had right after amputation, I consider Callie and us extremely fortunate. Once we got Callie home, she never experienced any reactions from any of the medications or had any mood changes. (just a little tired in the beginning) Once out of the hospital, she hasn’t missed a meal.

 

Perhaps the reasons for this are that she had the surgery very early on a Thursday morning and we didn’t bring her home until Monday evening. I think being in the hospital that long was good. We had a chance to rest up for her homecoming after the initial stress of her surgery and she was in a place where they could monitor her 24 hours. I’ve read where some pups have been discharged the next day which seems way too soon. Seeing Callie on the Saturday after her Thursday morning surgery, she was still so out of it and in no condition to come home. So being a newbie to this, that’s my only recommendation…if at all possible, leave your grey in the hospital for 5 days.

 

Regarding wearing a t-shirt to protect her incision, what is the best to use? The one Callie was wearing got caught on her hiney and she couldn’t get up. It also is kind of tight around her arm when she sleeps and spreads out. I was thinking of buying kid’s oversized t-shirts, unless there’s anything that’s better recommended.

 

I’m so appreciative that this is up here. It’s really sobering to read, but comforting as well.

[NeylasMom]

that Callie is doing so well! I've been hoping for an update. She did seem to do incredibly well with her surgery, which is great. Will be sending good thoughts on Friday for a smooth first chemo treatment.

 

I don't have any advice on the t-shirt, sorry. I know someone else will.

[brindlebaby]

I was thinking that because Callie broke her leg and wasn't showing any symptoms other than a limp right before Christmas that went away with meds could be another reason why she did so well after amputation. I guess It's probably just like anything, people have different results with the same surgery, why not dogs?

 

 

She had gradually been losing weight though, but I was told that this happens when dogs get older. She weighed 68 before amputation.... but I think her weight was in the 60's when she raced so that wasn't too bad of a weight loss.

 

Thank you from us and Callie for the well wishes.

 

 

that Callie is doing so well! I've been hoping for an update. She did seem to do incredibly well with her surgery, which is great. Will be sending good thoughts on Friday for a smooth first chemo treatment.

 

I don't have any advice on the t-shirt, sorry. I know someone else will.

[RedFawnMom]

I am so glad to hear that Callie is doing well!

 

Lucy's amp is scheduled for Tuesday a.m. and the vet said she'd like her to go home Wednesday evening around 8 p.m., assuming she's stable and moving around ok. I'm worried since you said it was good to have her at the clinic for 5 days.... I mentioned that it seemed like a short amount of time, but she said that the pups do better at home in familiar surroundings. I guess we'll play it by ear and see how she's doing on Wednesday.

[NeylasMom]

I am so glad to hear that Callie is doing well!

 

Lucy's amp is scheduled for Tuesday a.m. and the vet said she'd like her to go home Wednesday evening around 8 p.m., assuming she's stable and moving around ok. I'm worried since you said it was good to have her at the clinic for 5 days.... I mentioned that it seemed like a short amount of time, but she said that the pups do better at home in familiar surroundings. I guess we'll play it by ear and see how she's doing on Wednesday.

I don't think it necessarily needs to be 5 days, but I agree that only 1 night seems too soon. I think it also does depend a lot on the dog (namely how comfortable they are in a vet hospital) and on the people (how prepared are you for taking care of a dog just out of surgery). Regarding the latter, I know some folks on here are in the medical field and therefore it makes sense for htem to bring their pups home sooner. I think playing it by ear makes sense as long as you know the vet won't boot her out if you aren't ready. Assuming your facility has 24 hour care?

[Charlies_Dad]

That is fantastic news that Callie is doing well!

 

 

Jess, it all does depend on the pup. Our Charlie had his amp late on a Friday and we picked him Tuesday so that's 4.5 days and it worked very well as they are an animal hospital so 24/7 monitoring, etc. It made our time at home with the first few days easier as well but did cost a lot more money.

 

We'll keep Lucy in our thoughts that everything goes well.

[RedFawnMom]

Yes, someone will be there with her 24 hours. I don't think they'd boot her out if we weren't ready... We'll see how she does. Personally, I think I'd rather have her there an extra day, but I'm sure she'd be happier at home.

 

On a related note - for those of you with post-amp hounds and an SUV - do you have any recommendations for ramps? I have a Honda CRV that Lucy has always been able to jump into just fine, but I don't think she'll be able to do it post-amp, and I cannot lift her. Any suggestions?

[greysmom]

There are a ton of different ramps and step options. Is Lucy having a back or a front leg amp?

 

We kept Dude at the hospital 2 nights and brought him home the thrid day after surgery. The surgeon had said he could go home the first morning after, but when we saw him, there was no way he (or we) were ready to come home. Yes, they would probably prefer to be at home - wouldn't we all - but you really have to be ready to provide the level of care that's appropriate at that time. For us, we needed him more aware and able to handle being in our small house with four other greyhounds, with a pretty long (though level) trek to the yard. That meant an extra night in the hospital, and an extra charge, but it was well worth it.

 

I took off Dude's bandaging yesterday and was pleasantly surprised at how good the incision looks. He still has most of his thigh and muscles so it's pretty packed behind the sutures, but not red or angry looking. He still has some bruising around his hoohoo ( ) that I think are from the two days when his leg was in a hard cast. It doesn't seem to be bothering him though, and he's mainly left his stitches alone.

 

I just got my shipment of supplements from the Greyhound Gang. A Four-Pack (Glucosamine, MSM, Chondroitin, Vitamin C) and Extract of Yucca for inflammation. We might hold off on the joint stuff until we talk to the Oncologist again, but will start the Yucca probably tonight.

 

SO GLAD Callie is doing well! Good wishes for everyone else!

[Guest KathyK]

As to ramps, we have a ramp for Ward (before the osteo as he would never jump up) that we used. It was very heavy, and awkward but worked great, weighed about 20 lbs. I saw one advertised at Costco that I think was about 10 lbs. If you don't have a Costco in Ct. try BJ's. I know my family has that big box store in Ma. Check online. Hope that helps.

 

Kathy

[brindlebaby]

When we had our initial visit with the veterinary specialty services doctor (we already knew Callie had a broken leg and probably osteo at that point from a visit the day before at our regular vet), he too mentioned that she could probably go home the next day. (which kind of shocked me ) I think Cora (TallGreyMom <--I think that's her GT name) told me that if possible have them stay 5 days because the dogs are most at a 6 week point (I can't remember the exact amount of time), but I did want her to stay as long as she could (within reason ). Cora has had at least 6 osteo dogs so she was speaking from comparison with her greys.

 

When I talked to the surgeon the night of Callie's surgery, he said she was still pretty out of it. He thought it was more from the drugs and not the procedure.

 

When I talked to him 2 days after, she still wasn't eating and he wanted us to bring anything to try and tempt her. These two pictures are of Callie 57 hours after surgery - she was pretty much out of it. I felt like we were the Ghosts of Christmas past, seeing her, but she didn't even register we were there. She showed no interest at all in food, her nose didn't even register a twitch or sniff when food was put close to her nose.

Callie 57 hours after surgery

 

Callie 107 hours after surgery, the night we brought her home. More alert, sniffing food and eventually eating that evening. When the hospital called to give us our morning Callie update, they asked if we were coming to see her later (we were) and told us that after seeing her, we could take her home if we felt comfortable with it.

 

 

I hope Lucy has a good experience too. After you visit her, see how she's doing. If you don't feel comfortable just yet, I'm sure they wouldn't mind keeping her another day.

 

 

 

 

I am so glad to hear that Callie is doing well!

 

Lucy's amp is scheduled for Tuesday a.m. and the vet said she'd like her to go home Wednesday evening around 8 p.m., assuming she's stable and moving around ok. I'm worried since you said it was good to have her at the clinic for 5 days.... I mentioned that it seemed like a short amount of time, but she said that the pups do better at home in familiar surroundings. I guess we'll play it by ear and see how she's doing on Wednesday.

Edited January 29, 2011 by brindlebaby

[Guest bigorangedog]

Apollo was only in the hospital for about 24 hrs. He FREAKED OUT the whole time he was there, and I knew that he would. So as soon as they thought he was medically stable, we took him home (and he hopped out of that clinic on his own, just to get the heck out of there). Whitey stayed from a Friday afternoon surgery to a Sunday afternoon homecoming. They didn't want me to take him Sunday, but I knew we could manage it. We are pretty well-equipped here to deal with any issues, and I was not afraid to use my vet's home phone number.

 

But they DO require a lot of care post-op, so be prepared. Someone who can lift the dog if necessary needs to be there 24/7 for the first few days. Get a sling too, but understand that in the first day or two you may well be bearing most of her weight with that sling.

 

But every dog is different. Apollo never wanted a bit of help. And your girl being so young, I bet she is going to do really well. Just play it by ear, but be prepared for the worst-case scenario where she needs help with mobility for a week or more (this is unlikely, much more likely if she were a senior).

 

My two tripawds had no trouble jumping into our van. During the first week or so, I would put their front paw up and then boost their back end in. I'm only 105lbs, so I couldn't lift Apollo (75 lbs) either, but I could do him half at a time. Mine were never willing to use a car ramp. It scared the heck out of them.

[RedFawnMom]

There are a ton of different ramps and step options. Is Lucy having a back or a front leg amp?

 

It will be the rear leg. Being able to get her into my car is one of my biggest worries right now - she LOVES to go in the car and I take her wherever I can, but there is no way I can lift her (I've tried) and I can't imagine she'd be able to jump into the back of the car with only one rear leg.

 

 

Get a sling too, but understand that in the first day or two you may well be bearing most of her weight with that sling.

 

 

Can we just use a towel (rolled up)? Or is there an actual sling made for this purpose that you recommend?

[Guest bigorangedog]

She will be able to jump into the car with one rear leg. But probably not for a few weeks. If you have any doubt, watch this video! Jerry Murray Video

 

As for slings... A towel works, but can be a little hard to hold onto. Probably your vet can lend you a sling meant for this purpose (especially if the vet does a lot of orthopedic surgeries). It's got straps like a duffel bag on each side, so you can actually bear the weight better with your arms/shoulders instead of your hands. If you're handy with a sewing machine, you can make this too. Kinda like this but I prefer longer straps:

 

 

If it appears that she will need assistance longterm, you may invest in a RuffWear harness. Very heavy duty, and not great for the days immediately post surgery.

[queenwinniesmom]

In general, I think it helps everyone if they can stay at the hospital a little longer. Lucy is so young, so she may be ready to come home sooner, but it is a BIG adjustment. Winnie was at our wonderful vets for 5 days. They knew we had the step situation, and kept her longer. I think it's kinda scary to have them at home when they are still processing the anesthesia and heavy duty pain meds. It makes them act differently, and you probably won't get any sleep. And you'll NEED to get some sleep.

 

I agree with Jen---I think Lucy will be able to get into the car. You'll be surprised at what she will be able to do. Winnie adored the car, and would jump in just fine. Her's was a right rear amp.

 

We'll be thinking about you and Lucy, and sending out a ton of prayers, and white light.

 

Kim, Callie's pictures brought tears to my eyes. Hugs to your sweet girl, and hugs to you too.

[joejoesmom]

No one has answered the T shirt question yet, so I will tell you what I did. I used an adult size small for my Joe (75 pounds pre-amp weight). I cut most of one of the arms off -- otherwise it seemed to bind around his front leg. I put his remaining front leg through this armhole. Then I used two rubber bands, one at the neck and one at the bottom of the shirt. I pulled up the shirt to snug it around the neck and wrapped a rubber band around it. I then pulled up the bottom band of the T-shirt and pulled it as tight as would be comfortable and used the rubberband to keep it snug. Before we went out I would be sure to tighten up the bottom band to snug it up enough that he wouldn't pee on the shirt (being a boy dog). With only one front leg remaining it is a chore to put the shirt on. I would put the armhole up around his leg while he was lying down. Then I would get him up and stretch the shirt to get his head through the neck.

 

I am handy with a sewing machine so I have made him some custom t-shirts and pajama tops with velcro down the side, from the bottom through the armhole. I can then just put it over his head and velcro the side closed. Helps keep him comfy in the cold Ohio winter.

 

I don't have a rear leg amputee but have heard that some people are successful with a pair of boys boxer briefs put on backwards with the tail sticking out through the fly. I would think though that a determined dog might find a way to pull them down to get access to lick the incision. Of course you would need to take these off each time a potty trip is necessary.

 

---------------

 

As to how long to stay in the hospital: I am not sure that I could have physically (and perhaps emotionally) have handled having Joe come home after just 1 or 2 days. As long as the dog is comfortable in the hospital and they have 24/7 vet care (not just a vet tech), I would think most dogs and owners would benefit from staying for 3 days. For reference, Dr. Couto at OSU says that unlike other breeds, they keep greyhounds for 3 to 5 days. He has released other breeds, even large ones like retrievers, after just 24 hours but as we all know, greyhounds are different. Of course OSU has an excellent ICU department with greyhound knowledgeable vets present in the ICU 24/7. I was so lucky that I could take my Joe there.

 

---------------

 

I second Neylasmom's suggestion to add gabapentin (brand name Neurontin) to the pain meds before going to fentanyl. It is amazing how much it can help many dogs. It is unfortunate that so many vets are not familiar with this drug. It has been used for control of nerve pain in humans for some time. You do need to start at a smaller dose and gradually increase it. I have taken it myself for chronic pain. By the time I was at a therapeutic dose, I think I was taking 12 capsules a day. But it did help with the pain, especially in combination with tramadol. I am allergic to NSAIDs so I wasn't able to take one (like Deramaxx for dogs) but I bet that would have helped a lot too.

 

Jane

[lovinggreysslp]

After 24 good hours, Trip had a bumpy night. It seems like an hour before he is due for his next pain mess (tramadol or rimdyl) he becomes more uncomfortable. I will call first thing this morning about adjusting mess and hopefully adding gaberpertin. I love our vet but she may not know about the gaberpentin. Sorry for any typos but its been a week.

[Charlies_Dad]

Jess, I agree if Lucy can stay longer at the hospital, it is easier on you and her because if there is any emergency, she'll be taken care of. Our nerves were on edge after 4 days when Charlie came home but it was all us causing it, not him. Now had he been home 24-48hrs after surgery, I do believe it would have been a lot worse. Bottom line is you know Lucy and if she's better at home, then bring her home.

 

For those who have gone the amputation route (Dude & Callie) and those about to (Lucy), here are some pics that I hope make you smile and realize how incredible these pups are when they are a tripod. Here's Charlie this morning almost 7 mths post amp.

 

He is leading the charge out the door and is ahead of 4 legged Jack

 

Getting up to speed

 

Making me eat his dust

 

We are all cheering you on and hope all the pups recover quickly. And for those who's pups are fighting the battle and are not candidates for amputation no matter the reason, I hope you have many, many more days loving your pups.

Edited January 29, 2011 by Charlies_Dad

[Wonder]

 

Kari, aren't you also doing supplements in addition to meds? I would actually suspect an herbal supplement before I would the meds unless the diarrhea has been going on since you started the NSAID. I really like the Metamucil wafers myself - they've seemed to work quite well for our fosters. You could do Flagyl, but I personally would leave that as a last resort. If you add flagyl, you're adding yet another medication and there are some who feel that flagyl may contribute to cancer growth/issues. I have NO idea how well researched that belief is, but I've seen it shared on the cancer boards for what it's worth.

 

 

I stopped all suppliments last Sunday.

It is getting harder and harder to pill him. So trying to get 10+ pills in him day just wasn't what I wanted for him his last weeks. Now he's getting just the pain meds so 5 pills a day.

[Wonder]

I'm sorry to hear about Trip

 

 

Anyone have suggestions on what to give for big d? Can't be pumpkin, pill would be better

Not sure which medication is causing is. I don't think it's the tramadol since he's been on that before

 

Have you tried adding rice or oatmeal to his food?

 

He has been so picky eating that I don't think he would even touch rice or oatmeal.

 

I was worried he wouldn't eat the wafers but he did eat one yesterday and one this morning. I hope that helps his big D. He went 3 times last night My poor boy.

The interesting thing is, he only does this when I am not home. He doesn't wake me up to go potty at night although he does wake me up, he lays right back when next to me.

I'm beginning to wonder if he has some SA going on. He seems to want to go with me when I am leaving for work. He stands at the baby gate watching me and won't go lay down.

[Guest bigorangedog]

I stopped all suppliments last Sunday.

It is getting harder and harder to pill him. So trying to get 10+ pills in him day just wasn't what I wanted for him his last weeks. Now he's getting just the pain meds so 5 pills a day.

 

Have you tried those Pill Pockets? Most of my guys won't eat them, but when Whitey was doing Metronomic Protocol, I would wrap all his meds up in one of the Pockets and then stick the pocket down his throat. (Easier than sticking a handful of individual pills down.)

 

Could you mix some ground flaxseed meal in with his meat? That would help with D.

 

I feel bad that he is having SA. Are you sure you can't bring him over here while you're at work? Only other suggestion would be to give him a little Valium, but I also hate to do too many meds.

[Guest roselle]

I am so sickened to hear of the new cases of osteo on here. I think the first week we were in shock, everything was happening so fast. My heart goes out to all these families devastated by this.

 

 

Callie had her bandage and staples removed on Wednesday. Her incision wasn’t as shocking to me as I was expecting (well maybe just for a teeny second seeing her walk out to us in the lobby from back in the exam room). I think the surgeon did a really good job.

We heard from the hospital this morning that OSU will be sending out the chemo drugs on Monday. Our plan is to have Callie’s first treatment on Friday morning. I’m very relieved that this next step is about to start, I was nervous that we weren’t moving fast enough.

 

From reading online and the experiences others have had right after amputation, I consider Callie and us extremely fortunate. Once we got Callie home, she never experienced any reactions from any of the medications or had any mood changes. (just a little tired in the beginning) Once out of the hospital, she hasn’t missed a meal.

 

Perhaps the reasons for this are that she had the surgery very early on a Thursday morning and we didn’t bring her home until Monday evening. I think being in the hospital that long was good. We had a chance to rest up for her homecoming after the initial stress of her surgery and she was in a place where they could monitor her 24 hours. I’ve read where some pups have been discharged the next day which seems way too soon. Seeing Callie on the Saturday after her Thursday morning surgery, she was still so out of it and in no condition to come home. So being a newbie to this, that’s my only recommendation…if at all possible, leave your grey in the hospital for 5 days.

 

Regarding wearing a t-shirt to protect her incision, what is the best to use? The one Callie was wearing got caught on her hiney and she couldn’t get up. It also is kind of tight around her arm when she sleeps and spreads out. I was thinking of buying kid’s oversized t-shirts, unless there’s anything that’s better recommended.

 

I’m so appreciative that this is up here. It’s really sobering to read, but comforting as well.

 

 

 

I'm so happy Callie is doing great, good luck with chemo. Our Gracy is on carboplatin. She just had her 5th. of 6 treatments. I haven't been around because this last tx. gave her a big old D that is still going on. Up till now it's been smooth sailing. Sending big cyber hugs and kisses to Callie from me and gracy

 

Gracy