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Jess, our Charlie was 'back to normal 7-10 days post amp. His appetite never changed, he is a food hound and ate the day of his amp and the day after. The first 7-10 days was all our worry, he didn't seem too fazed and it was the Tramadol that caused our concern because he panted so much on it. We did stay home with him the first two weeks and it was mostly the first week that we monitored him closely and went outside with him to make sure he didn't fall. He surprised us and continues to.

 

Each pup will react differently but I will say, a tripod is a beautiful sight to behold.

Kyle with Stewie ('Super C Ledoux, Super C Sampson x Sing It Blondie) and forever missing my three angels, Jack ('Roy Jack', Greys Flambeau x Miss Cobblepot) and Charlie ('CTR Midas Touch', Leo's Midas x Hallo Argentina) and Shelby ('Shari's Hooty', Flying Viper x Shari Carusi) running free across the bridge.

Gus an coinnich sinn a'rithist my boys and little girl.

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Thanks for the replies so far.

 

I have another question: is there any way to tell pre amp how far along the cancer is, besides chest xrays? At first I for some reason was thinking we'd get a couple years post oateo...I assumed we caught it early, but having done some reading, I'm feeling less confident about that. I didn't know that it is MORE aggressive in younger dogs. :-(

 

She's had a huge increase in water intake over the past few weeks (and increase in urine volume), so we had some bloodwork done...bloodwork was perfect so before the cancer diagnosis I thought UTI. But she's not peeing small amounts like a UTI. So now I'm worried the cancer could have spread somewhere else to cause this but I'm not sure how we'd know. We are seeing our local vet tonight to get urinalysis and evaluate for UTI. If negative I don't know what to do. If it's spread already, I don't think we'd do the amp.

 

We probably need to see an oncologist before making a decision but the one our ortho vet highly recommends is 2 hrs away. I need to find someone local. We've wasted too much time already.

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Always missing our angel Lucy, a four year osteo survivor.

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Jess, maybe the oncologist would do a phone consult for now?

 

Regarding how to know whether it's spread, that's the problem, it's quite difficult. You could spend a ton of money scanning her whole body - that was part of the insurmountable cost of doing this newer procedure where you use a highly specialized beam of radiation to get rid of the tumor and avoid cutting the leg off that I looked into - but even that wouldn't be a guarantee.

 

The problem is that mets initially are quite small and not necessarily visible on x-ray. You could get a clear lung x-ray and there could still be the very beginning of mets there.

 

The hard truth is that the odds are not in your favor, but sometimes you just have to take a leap of faith. Or you make the decision not to amputate if that's what sits better with you. Either way, there are no guarantees and there is no way to know what will in the end give Lucy a longer life. That's the incredibly difficult thing about osteo, there's no clear cut "right" treatment. The best you can do, and this is coming from a person who is TERRIBLE at doing it, is do the best you can to make the decision you feel is right for her and try not to second guess yourself. I think that if you're making the decisions for her and not for yourself, you'll be able to get through this with no regrets.

 

As for the water consumption/peeing, get a sterile sample and do a urine culture in addition to the urinalysis, and if you haven't run blood work in a few weeks, redo that so you can look at her kidney values, especially if she's been on an NSAID since you last did it. When Neyla had a UTI years and years ago, it presented like that so I wouldn't worry too much until you get culture results back. But, don't skip the culture - you're much less likely to get a false negative with a culture than with a urinalysis - unless they can take the sterile sample, run the u/a in house and if they don't find bacteria, then send the rest out to culture.

 

Hang in there. I know how tough these decisions are, especially when trying to make them while also dealing with what is essentially grief. :grouphug

Edited by NeylasMom

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Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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We spoke with an Oncologist prior to Dude's surgery. His lung xrays were clear and bloodwork was normal, so the only thing we had to go on was the broken leg and possble tumor there. She did say we could do an ultrasound of his abdominal cavity to see if there were any visible mets or tumors, but that it really wouldn't change her treatment recommendations. Since it was already broken, and probably wouldn't heal properly anyway, the leg had to come off. She also said that since he was basically healthy, he would be better able to handle the surgery *now* rather than after the cancer had progressed further. We'll do chemo and just wait to see how he responds.

 

It's hard not knowing if we'll have him months or years, but we're going to make sure we cherish all the days he has left.

Chris - Mom to: Felicity (DeLand), and Andi (Braska Pandora)

52592535884_69debcd9b4.jpgsiggy by Chris Harper, on Flickr

Angels: Libby (Everlast), Dorie (Dog Gone Holly), Dude (TNJ VooDoo), Copper (Kid's Copper), Cash (GSI Payncash), Toni (LPH Cry Baby), Whiskey (KT's Phys Ed), Atom, Lilly

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Wonder is still doing the same. Eating like a horse, greeting us at the door with a toy, being excited about going out. The leg is dragging due to the osteo in the shoulder. The shoulder has lost all muscle so protrudes a lot. Still on the 250 mgs of Tramadol a day and the Metacam.

 

I saw something from one of the links about bisphosphonates and would like to know if they helped any pup with pain or prolonged their life. Here is something I copied.

 

"In humans, bisphosphonates are used to treat osteoporosis and to help lower high calcium levels due to certain types of cancer. They are also used to stabilize bones that are at risk for fracture from metastatic cancer or from multiple myeloma. The most common bisphosphonates are oral alendronate (Fosamax®), oral risedronate (Actonel®) and intravenous pamidronate (Aredia®)."

 

The opinion is that the I V one is better although it takes 2 to 4 hours for the drip.

 

I apologize that I can't remember where I saw it.

Alice (missing 12/7/05), Wonder and Ben

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And our beloved Bridge Kids... Inky, Maui, Murphy, Ragamuffin, Della and Natalie

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Thanks for the replies so far.

 

I have another question: is there any way to tell pre amp how far along the cancer is, besides chest xrays? At first I for some reason was thinking we'd get a couple years post oateo...I assumed we caught it early, but having done some reading, I'm feeling less confident about that. I didn't know that it is MORE aggressive in younger dogs. :-(

 

She's had a huge increase in water intake over the past few weeks (and increase in urine volume), so we had some bloodwork done...bloodwork was perfect so before the cancer diagnosis I thought UTI. But she's not peeing small amounts like a UTI. So now I'm worried the cancer could have spread somewhere else to cause this but I'm not sure how we'd know. We are seeing our local vet tonight to get urinalysis and evaluate for UTI. If negative I don't know what to do. If it's spread already, I don't think we'd do the amp.

 

We probably need to see an oncologist before making a decision but the one our ortho vet highly recommends is 2 hrs away. I need to find someone local. We've wasted too much time already.

 

I doubt the water intake increase has anything to do with the cancer. I have never heard anyone comment on a possible link.

 

A scan probably would show cancer better than an x-ray but it is prohibitively expensive, requires anesthesia, and a clean scan still does not mean no metastases. Microscopic metastases just do not show up on available tests. The only thing I can tell you is that oncologists believe that 85 to 90 percent of dogs have microscopic metastases in their lungs by the time the osteosarcoma is discovered. This is why they follow amputation with chemo. The goal of this chemo is to kill any remaining cancer cells. OSU is now following IV chemo with a low dose chemo protocol meant to control the growth of any cancer. This is called a metronomic protocol. They are having success with this treatment.

 

The survival statistics are still much better with amp/chemo (14 months) than palliative care (6 to 12 weeks). However, it is expensive and not every dog is a good candidate. The dog will have 2 to 3 weeks of significant recovery but will have little to no pain after fully recovered (about 4 to 6 weeks). They will live most of the remainder of their life pain free. The mean survival time is 14 months (this includes those that only make it 6 months along with those who make it years). There is no way of telling whether you get months or years.

 

My Joe had just turned 7 when it was discovered. Pathology said it was osteoblastic osteosarcoma -- a very aggressive form of an agressive cancer. I chose to do amputation (I live in Columbus so I have the excellent Greyhound program at OSU to rely on). I have not regretted my decision. We are now 6 months post amp and so far his lung x-rays are clear. He will be on the metronomic protocol for the rest of his life. Dr. Couto tells me that if they make it two years after stopping the chemo, they will typically not die from bone cancer (i.e. they are cancer "free"). However since they can not predict this, they recommend keeping the dog on the metronomic protocol for life.

The current protocol includes a drug called Palladia. This is a very expensive drug ($300 to $400) a month. However, this is not the only metronomic protocol in use. This is just the one that OSU feels is the best available right now.

 

Yes, osteo in younger hounds tends to be of a more aggressive type. The only good thing about this is that chemo tends to work better on fast growing cancers.

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

To answer some other questions:

 

How long does chemo take?

 

First a CBC is done to ensure that chemo will be safe. This takes just a few minutes if the vet has the capability in house. Then an IV line is inserted. Then the chemo is given, usually taking about 15 minutes. The whole procedure is typically done in 1 to 1 1/2 hours. Many oncologists (including OSU) prefer to have the dog dropped off in the morning and picked up in the afternoon.

 

Chris, do you know why it's swollen? Is the swelling new? Any chance it's edema (fluids) that are pooling?

 

Our group considers a joint supplement standard for any grey over 6 or 7 years old so I don't think that's a bad idea in general, same with fish oil both for joint support and immune health, but if there's swelling, I would think you'd want to get to the source of it.

 

I had a problem with all of Joe's legs. OSU said to use warm compresses combined with a gentle message. Massage from the paws up to the top of the leg.

 

FWIW: OSU did not want Joe on any supplements during chemo. They said that they did not know whether or not various supplements would affect the efficacy of the chemo so it was best not to give any.

 

Jane

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I look at the pictures on my cell phone of her in the hospital, her chest was beet red and her belly red and irritated. It looks perfect now... is that from taking the Amacar??

 

 

I have a question regarding chemo... how long does it take (like how long are you at the hospital), how do the dog's react, is it hard on them? I'd like to know when I go back to work so I can tell them I need off because I want to be there with her. I'm also going to take off (although they don't know it) when she gets her bandage off this week.

 

 

 

Amicar is given to avoid life threatening bleeding. However, there are pictures in one of OSU's newsletters that show brusing after spaying with and without Amicar. The amicar appears to reduce the bruising significantly.

 

I already answered about the time it takes for chemo. Most dogs experience little or no side effects. They might be a little lethargic the day of and the day after the chemo. Sometimes there is some nausea (rarely vomiting) and some diarrhea in the 3 to 5 days following a chemo treatment. OSU gives 5 days of cerenia after each treatment. There are also a lot of other drugs to manage nausea and vomiting if necessary. Metronidazole is the drug commonly used for diarrhea.

 

My Joe had a bit of nausea from time to time. He started out eating just dry kibble but a few times he wouldn't eat it unless I put some thinned canned food on it. Now he won't eat unless his food is doctored in this way (He's trained me well). He did have one bout of diarrhea, but metronidazole cleared that up.

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Wonder is still doing the same. Eating like a horse, greeting us at the door with a toy, being excited about going out. The leg is dragging due to the osteo in the shoulder. The shoulder has lost all muscle so protrudes a lot. Still on the 250 mgs of Tramadol a day and the Metacam.

 

I saw something from one of the links about bisphosphonates and would like to know if they helped any pup with pain or prolonged their life. Here is something I copied.

 

"In humans, bisphosphonates are used to treat osteoporosis and to help lower high calcium levels due to certain types of cancer. They are also used to stabilize bones that are at risk for fracture from metastatic cancer or from multiple myeloma. The most common bisphosphonates are oral alendronate (Fosamax®), oral risedronate (Actonel®) and intravenous pamidronate (Aredia®)."

 

The opinion is that the I V one is better although it takes 2 to 4 hours for the drip.

 

I apologize that I can't remember where I saw it.

 

This is from an OSU article on bone cancer:

If owners are reluctant to allow the veterinarian to amputate the limb, local radiotherapy plus carboplatin

may be of some benefit. However, in our limited experience, most dogs are eventually euthanized within 3

to 4 months of the initial diagnosis because of the development of pathological fractures (i.e., after

radiotherapy the tumor is not as painful; therefore the dog regains normal use of the limb and fractures

the area), osteomyelitis, or metastatic lesions.

Pain control is essential in dogs where surgery is not an option; we have used either NSAIDs (carprofen,

deracoxib, meloxicam) at recommended doses, or bisphosphonates such as alendronate (Fosamax®), at a

dose of 10 mg/dog once a day or pamidronate (Aredia®), at a dose of 1 mg/kg, IV as a 30-minute CRI,

every 3 to 6 weeks. Drugs such as tramadol (Ultram) at dosages of 1-2 mg/kg, PO, q8-12h may also be

beneficial.

 

link to the full article:

 

https://greyhound.osu.edu/resources/freeresources/bonecancer/index.cfm

 

Hope this helps,

 

Jane

 

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Zoolady, I did an IV pamidronate treatment with Neyla. The improvement in terms of pain was pretty remarkable. However, we unfortunately experienced the kidney side effects that are a risk of the treatment so we were unable to repeat the treatment and also had to deal with the resulting issues (tons of water drinking, incontinence,e tc.). However, there is a chance that Neyla's kidneys were already compromised when we did the treatment so she may not have been the best candidate despite my vets recommending the treatment.

 

Kristin chose to do it with Sutra as well and had really good results and no side effects with multiple treatments.

 

I actually think it's a very promising treatment and if you can afford it, I would recommend it as long as you understand and are prepared for the possible side effect. The other option is radiation - treatment is now 2 treatments 2 days in a row rather than weekly for 4 weeks, but I didn't want to put Neyla under anesthesia 2 days in a row and felt the pamidronate offered the better likelihood of providing more immediate pain relief. There is also speculation and some scientific evidence that pamid actually helps prevent the bone destruction that occurs iwth osteo and has some anti-cancer effects. You can find a few studies on pubmed to that effect, but they're limited at this point.

 

If you have more specific questions about the treatment, let me know, I'm happyt o answer them. The key thing is that IV fluids need to be given for 2 hours before, then the drug is pushed with fluids, followed by more IV fluids afteward - that is all to reduce the risk of damage to teh kidneys. So the whole treatment takes 4-5 hours and you'll need to blood work and a urinalysis before each treatment to check the kidneys. Most vets will also want to do x-rays. My vet wanted to do lung x-rays, but I passed b/c I figured the pain was going to be the end before the lungs either way so I'd do the treatment regardless. I did want to re-xray the leg b/c I didn't want to do the treatment if we were getting in to the fracture risk area. THe risk there is the dog feels better, is more active and then breaks the bone.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Oh, treatments are generally 4 weeks apart, fyi.

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Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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Guest bigorangedog

Alendronate is part of the Metronomic Protocol, and we did use it with Whitey after mets were found. I'm not sure what helped Whitey, but he was a Rock Star even after we knew that he had mets in his distal radius, spine, and lungs. He just kept on truckin' like nothing was wrong, until about the last few days.

 

(What ended Apollo's life was actually back pain -- not spinal mets, but he injured his back and we were never able to get his pain under control since the tripawd hop is so high-impact. When we did a back x-ray a couple days before he died, we did find lung mets appearing, but he never showed any symptoms and I'm sure could have lived months longer if not for the back pain.)

 

On the other hand, my vet's dog Cloudy broke his leg and they repaired it. In hindsight, she believes he had osteo at that point, but they could not tell since the bone was shattered on the rads. But she was able to get that osteo leg to HEAL, which is extremely difficult to do. Unfortunately, he kept on having trouble with it and they finally discovered the osteo. She put him on alendronate and some analgesics, and he lived for many months after that in very little pain.

 

--

 

In regard to telling how far along the cancer is.... You can make an educated guess based on how the bone appears on the rads, but without a full-body scan, it's impossible to tell whether it has metastasized (or micrometastasized) to other places in the body. In hindsight, I suspect that Whitey already had spinal mets before we took his leg, but we didn't go around x-raying every bone in his body so we didn't find it of course. Just found the tumor in his humerus.

 

My vet is fond of saying that cancer is a crap-shoot (I've also heard this phrasing from queenwinniesmom), and that is right-on. You may very well be one of those lucky ones who gets years post-amp. I thought for a while that we'd get that with Whitey, even at age 11, because he was such a little bad-ass it seemed like nothing would stop him. But I've known other dogs (Smiley, from this board, the sweetheart) who broke his other leg just a couple days after his amputation and that's how they found out that he had tumors in both legs.

 

You just don't know. There is no way to know. So you go with the best information you have at the time. Knowing what I know now (5 osteo dogs in 2 years), I would always amputate if the dog were a candidate for it and I thought he/she could emotionally cope with the recovery. For others, though, that would not be their choice. You know your dog best. Sure, she may have a more aggressive tumor. She also may not. Odds are that at her age, she'll have an easy recovery. You may get very little time post-amp or you may get a handful of amazing pain-free months or you may get a full lifespan with no recurrence. No one knows. It's a hell of a decision to make.

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Toby seemed to start drinking more water than he usually did as well, so it may well be the pain meds causing that.

 

I've been missing him quite a bit these last several days...so I thought I'd take a moment and share a photo of my goofy Goober-dog doing what he did best. My brother took this picture in August or thereabouts...he'd had a seat on our couch, and Toby climbed up beside him, made himself comfortable, and slung a front leg across my brother's lap to ask for a chest rub. My brother, quick thinker that he is, whipped out his iPhone and caught this photo, hence the blurry quality.

 

Toby1-1.jpg

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Our hound Trip was diagnosed with osteo this afternoon. It is truely devastating.

Cosmo (Fuzz Face Cosmos), Holmes (He's a Dream), Boomer (USS Baby Boomer), Ella and missing our angels Clay (Red Clay), Train (Nite Train), Trip (Bock's Teddy Bear),Larry (Bohemian Frigid) and Jimmy (Bohemian Raw)
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I am so sorry to hear about your hound Trip. I am fairly new to this thread also. You will find lots of support from some very caring people. Our "Ward" was diagnosed in November. It has been very helpful to read this forum and know that you are not alone. I think you need to process this news for a few days and make the best decisions you can for Trip's particular situation. The answers will come to you. This is a great place for support. Hugs from Ward, Roxie and myself.

 

Kathy

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Guest racergirl435

I'm very sorry to hear about your boy Trip. Hopefully it's been caught early enought that you may have some options and time left.

 

Jess

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Sadly, we are not catching Trip's tumor early and our vet said we have a very short time that pain medication will be effective. His limping, very slight to start with, only started a couple weeks ago. He went in to the vet two weeks ago but at the time, she did not feel the need to xray because physical exam did not show any concerns. I plan to read as much as I can about pain management. We are not opting for amputation because we do not think that is the best option for Trip. Thanks for your words of support.

Cosmo (Fuzz Face Cosmos), Holmes (He's a Dream), Boomer (USS Baby Boomer), Ella and missing our angels Clay (Red Clay), Train (Nite Train), Trip (Bock's Teddy Bear),Larry (Bohemian Frigid) and Jimmy (Bohemian Raw)
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Our Ward is not a candidate for amputation either. He would just not tolerate it based on his personality and preexisting handicaps.We are managing him with Tramadol and Rimadyl. When that is not working as well our Vet has recommended a Fentanyl patch. We will give it a try and hope that he does not have some of the side effects I have read about such as hallucinations, panting, sedation etc. At that point it would just not be worth it. Comforting thoughts your way.

 

Kathy

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Kathy, that is exactly the medication Trip is on now. I am relieved to say that he is resting comfortably right now. I too will be looking into the pros and cons of the patch.

Cosmo (Fuzz Face Cosmos), Holmes (He's a Dream), Boomer (USS Baby Boomer), Ella and missing our angels Clay (Red Clay), Train (Nite Train), Trip (Bock's Teddy Bear),Larry (Bohemian Frigid) and Jimmy (Bohemian Raw)
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Ward is pretty comfortable except when he has to lay down. He is a "twirler" and spins around on his bed both ways before he will lay down. We are able to help him by gently pushing down on his good hip. He seems to appreciate the help. He sleeps in our bedroom and only wakes up once or twice a night to reposition himself. We do give him a bigger Tramadol dose in the morning as he has usually gone about 10 hours without medication. Glad to hear Trip is resting comfortably after his meds. I'll let you know if we start the patch.

 

Kathy

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I am sorry to read of Trip diagnosis. You are right, when you hear the words it is devastating. I see you are going the pain management route. I hope you are able to get the right combination of meds to help him enjoy life for a long time yet.

Kyle with Stewie ('Super C Ledoux, Super C Sampson x Sing It Blondie) and forever missing my three angels, Jack ('Roy Jack', Greys Flambeau x Miss Cobblepot) and Charlie ('CTR Midas Touch', Leo's Midas x Hallo Argentina) and Shelby ('Shari's Hooty', Flying Viper x Shari Carusi) running free across the bridge.

Gus an coinnich sinn a'rithist my boys and little girl.

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I'm sorry to hear about Trip

 

:grouphug

 

Anyone have suggestions on what to give for big d? Can't be pumpkin, pill would be better

Not sure which medication is causing is. I don't think it's the tramadol since he's been on that before

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Kari and the pups.
Run free sweet Hana 9/21/08-9/12/10. Missing Sparks with every breath.
Passion 10/16/02-5/25/17

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What all meds is he on, Kari?

 

Our go-to options here are metamucil wafers (1/2 - 1 wafer twice a day); Pepto Bismol gelcaps; or Endosorb (available from the vet). Metamucil wafers or Endosorb (NOT both!) if the diet simply doesn't go through the dog very well; Pepto Bismol if there may be some intestinal irritation.

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

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What all meds is he on, Kari?

 

Our go-to options here are metamucil wafers (1/2 - 1 wafer twice a day); Pepto Bismol gelcaps; or Endosorb (available from the vet). Metamucil wafers or Endosorb (NOT both!) if the diet simply doesn't go through the dog very well; Pepto Bismol if there may be some intestinal irritation.

 

 

Tramadol 50 mg twice a day

Gabapentin once a day for the last week, just started today with twice a day

Melacoxin (sp?) 1/2 pill a day

 

I'll pick up some of the wafers at Target- thanks for the reminder

 

I guess I have flagyl too

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Kari and the pups.
Run free sweet Hana 9/21/08-9/12/10. Missing Sparks with every breath.
Passion 10/16/02-5/25/17

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