Osteo Thread

[brindlebaby]

I too was having problems posting pictures and found this thread yesterday - it's so simple, I was going about it all wrong.

 

http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/121707-how-to-post-a-picture/

 

I'm so sorry to hear about Ward. Please give him a gentle hug from us too and for you.

 

 

Thank you Charlie's Dad. Unfortunately we cannot get xrays. Ward is very difficult to transport now and has to be sedated for xrays. It took 2 days to get the films last time and he could not stand up for hours when we got him home. He also got hyperthermia once at the Vets due to stress.I think we will just try to keep him quiet, start the Fentanyl patch and make the decision when his pain is not relieved. The Vet has given me an injection to give him if the hip breaks. I am a nurse so I'm pretty comfortable doing that and buying some time until we can get to the Vet. I just gave Ward your hug. He really appreciated it.

 

I would like to post his photo but can't figure out how to do it. Can anyone help me out?

[brindlebaby]

 

Kim, the Chemo drug that OSU commonly uses is Doxyrubicin. We used this for Charlie as well. The other Chemo drug is Carboplatin that tends to be more expensive and if you are getting the drugs free from OSU, it's likely the former. The magic question of which is more successful, well that nobody has the right answer for. I spent hours and hours analyzing results between the two and basically it's a crap-shoot. What you have to look at are the numbers that show what percentage of pups are still around at 6mths, 12mths, 2yrs and 3yrs, it is all quite dismal but hang in there and stay POSITIVE!

 

 

Thank you for answering, I tried to respond to your last PM and it said I couldn't respond. Not sure if I can only respond once??

 

Thanks for the info (I think you gave it to me before, I have notes everywhere and need to get more organized!!).

 

The oncologist gave me survival numbers and I don't want to hear about it, not now anyway!

 

Right now we are just letting Callie go out to potty, but my husband wants her to walk around the house, I guess?? He thinks she needs to get her strength back. I think she has to take it easy at least for a couple of weeks. Her discharge papers say 2 weeks of house rest, which is what she is doing. She's been through an awful lot and I don't want to put undue stress on her. She will lay some on the air mattress in the living room, but will go to her bed in our bedroom for bed. Today she only stayed on the air mattress for about 5 hours and now went to our room. I think it's cooler in there (and quieter) although our house is pretty calm. It's cold outside, the spot where the air mattress is gets the afternoon sun.

 

I'm going to call the oncologist now and give her the OSU numbers, etc.

 

& to Charlie

 

kim

Edited January 19, 2011 by brindlebaby

[Charlies_Dad]

 

Thank you for answering, I tried to respond to your last PM and it said I couldn't respond. Not sure if I can only respond once??

 

Thanks for the info (I think you gave it to me before, I have notes everywhere and need to get more organized!!).

 

The oncologist gave me survival numbers and I don't want to hear about it, not now anyway!

 

Right now we are just letting Callie go out to potty, but my husband wants her to walk around the house, I guess?? He thinks she needs to get her strength back. I think she has to take it easy at least for a couple of weeks. Her discharge papers say 2 weeks of house rest, which is what she is doing. She's been through an awful lot and I don't want to put undue stress on her. She will lay some on the air mattress in the living room, but will go to her bed in our bedroom for bed. Today she only stayed on the air mattress for about 5 hours and now went to our room. I think it's cooler in there (and quieter) although our house is pretty calm. It's cold outside, the spot where the air mattress is gets the afternoon sun.

 

I'm going to call the oncologist now and give her the OSU numbers, etc.

 

& to Charlie

 

kim

 

My inbox was full and I did not notice it that is why you could not reply to my PM. I've since performed my admin work and deleted a number of messages!

 

We let Charlie get up and around the house after his amp obviously carefully watching him however outside he had the harness on and me right beside him all the way - at least for the first 7-10 days.

 

Charlie graciously accepts all kisses and hugs his way!

Edited January 19, 2011 by Charlies_Dad

[NeylasMom]

Kathy, I'm really sorry that you're going through this with Ward. I considered the Fentanyl patch, but decided against it in the end b/c I thought we could get the same result increasing Neyla's Deramaxx and I had already discovered that Tylenol 3 made her nauseous and I was afraid that the Fentanyl would as well since both contain opiates. If you do decide to use it, you do have to be aware that it can take a day or so for it to kick in.

 

In my opinion, if he is crying out, his pain is not adequately controlled. We all have different ideas of what we feel is acceptable though so I'm not judging you, just giving you my personal take on it. You already have him on a very high dose of Tramadol and the max maintenance dose for Rimadyl, but you don't have any Gabapentin on board. A lot of people, including myself note marked improvement with that addition. There's a lot of info on it already in this thread if you read back. You might also consider spreading out the Tramadol dosage if you can - not increasing it but giving less more often. I'm surprised your vet has said you can give that much. For treating chronic cancer pain in dogs, the usual dose is 0.45-1.8mg per pound of pet's weight given by mouth every 6 hours so even at 80 lbs, the max dose would be 144mg every 6 hours.

 

As far as your other question, no one can answer that for you of course. Without an x-ray, it's very difficult to say how at risk he is for a fracture, but my suspicion if he is having difficulty lying down regularly is that there's a danger there. I decided that if we got to that point I would let Neyla go b/c she is so fearful at the vet's and I did not want to risk her last moments being at an emergency vet in terrible pain, but we were able to monitor her tumor progression via x-ray so I could make that decision and I made the decision to let her go anyway before the tumor had visibly progressed that far. I can only reiterate what Kyle said, that too soon is better than to late, and while I don't blame myself or feel I did anything wrong, even with that clearly in my mind and my sole intent was to let Neyla go before she could no longer do the things she loved, I still feel that if I had known then what I know now, I would have let her go a week sooner.

 

But, again, I didn't and so I don't blame myself. I think I did okay all things considered and I was at peace with my choice when the time came. What I regret more is all of the time when she was still healthy that I took her for granted.

 

Anyway, we're here for you whatever you decide.

[Guest KathyK]

Thank you Neyla's Mom. I know the Tramadol dose is high but it really helps Ward. The Vet assures me that he can tolerate this dose. I will ask about the gabapentin when I talk to the Vet. When we start the Fentanyl we will be discontinuing the Tramadol.

 

Regarding cost of medicines, I had a very unpleasant experience.Thought I would share. I filled a prescription in a hurry at my local Save On. For 300 count of 50 mg Tramadol they charged me $155. I had the exact same prescription refilled at Costco for $24. Interestingly, the Fentanyl patches are $15/each at the same Save On but $30/each at Costco. I guess my complaining to the pharmacist at Save On made him feel bad enough to give me a good price. I have learned to ask for a "matching price." They look up competitor's price in the computer...but you have to ask.

[Guest Shermanator]

I also lost Patton to the dreaded osteo 6 weeks after Sherman. So hard. They fought a strong battle they just couldn't win. I miss my babies.

 

Also, there is a lab in Phoenix researching cancer in canines, and requesting samples:

AZ Republic article

TGen Canine Hereditary Cancer Consortium

[Guest roselle]

I went to visit a former foster on Sunday. He was one of my favorite fosters. I pulled from the Humane Society 6 yrs ago where his last family dumped him.

He was adopted by a wonderful family who has spoiled him for the last 6 years.

He has osteo and will be going to the bridge on Thursday

My heart is breaking for his family.

Here's some pictures from Sunday

Duke

 

What a heartbreak. He's beautiful. Thankfully he had 6 loving years with his family. I hate this osc.

[Guest roselle]

Hi Kim, welcome to the group. I've been following your Callie thread and am so thrilled to hear how well she is doing and that she's now eating. I heard that the preferred chemo drug that OSU usually supplies is currently "backordered", but that doesn't mean that you won't be able to get an acceptable drug from them, it just may not be the first choice. I don't know details though as I'm by far not the chemo expert here.

 

 

Jane, I will update the main post to include the specific information about how to submit consult requests when I get a chance and will refer to your more detailed post as well.

 

Roselle, how did Gracy's chemo go???

 

Gracy had her 5th. out of 6 chemo tx. yesterday. One more to go and she's done, hopefully. Now I need to figure out what if we do a maintenance program. Any Ideas? a lot of you do these different cocktails and there liver and kidneys pay a toll and they die anyway. I'm not sure what to do. For now I feel like she'll live forever (there's that deniel again.

[NeylasMom]

Roselle, if it were me, after the chemo was done I would continue with a raw diet, fish oil, and probiotics, and a joint supplement, which have always been a part of my dog's routine (well Zuri doesn't get probiotics right now, but Neyla did). And I would add maitake extract and either an artemisinin/curcumin cycling regimen or I would cycle through a few different herbs, probably 2-4 weeks at a time (artemisinin, curcumin, and maybe one other). I would probably also add in an overall anti-oxidant/immune health supplement when it didn't interfere with the arte, something like ECGC extract. That's just me though, you know I tend toward the holistic route. But my thought would be to in general aim for overall health - give the things that are biologically appropriate in terms of diet and a supplement (the AO) to support general immune health, then give one or two potent holistic anti-cancer herbs to fight off any potential mets.

 

Kathy, I've never heard of Save On. Perhaps they don't have a generic drug program? Costco and a lot of other pharmacies do have those programs where generic Rx's are $4 each without insurance. Tramadol is generic, you just probably paid a little more than 4 dollar b/c you got more tablets than what they consider a one month adult supply. The same would be true for the Gabapentin. I believe all the warehouse places like Costco have the program, as does Walmart and I believe Target. I think most grocery stores should by now as well.

 

Glad your vet is comfortable with the Tramadol dosage. I didn't realize you would be switching for the Fentanyl, that makes a lot more sense to me.

[Charlies_Dad]

 

Gracy had her 5th. out of 6 chemo tx. yesterday. One more to go and she's done, hopefully. Now I need to figure out what if we do a maintenance program. Any Ideas? a lot of you do these different cocktails and there liver and kidneys pay a toll and they die anyway. I'm not sure what to do. For now I feel like she'll live forever (there's that deniel again.

 

 

Way to go Gracy!!! 1 more to go!

 

Roselle, concerning a 'maintenance plan', we are doing everything that Jen wrote plus we are doing Palladia. It's an expensive drug however we hope it is helping. I believe Jane (JoeJoe's mom) got on a 6 month program for Palladia that OSU I think is either subsidizing or possibly paying the whole amount. It's roughly $300-350/mth for Charlie.

[Guest KathyK]

Save On is a West Coast pharmacy chain. It WAS a generic prescription. A total rip off!!

[Guest roselle]

 

Gracy had her 5th. out of 6 chemo tx. yesterday. One more to go and she's done, hopefully. Now I need to figure out what if we do a maintenance program. Any Ideas? a lot of you do these different cocktails and there liver and kidneys pay a toll and they die anyway. I'm not sure what to do. For now I feel like she'll live forever (there's that deniel again.

 

 

Way to go Gracy!!! 1 more to go!

 

Roselle, concerning a 'maintenance plan', we are doing everything that Jen wrote plus we are doing Palladia. It's an expensive drug however we hope it is helping. I believe Jane (JoeJoe's mom) got on a 6 month program for Palladia that OSU I think is either subsidizing or possibly paying the whole amount. It's roughly $300-350/mth for Charlie.

 

Thanks Jen and Kyle, my vet is sending me to a holistic vet. Jen I think your plan is good for us. Kyle, I will look into Pallidia, what are the side effects Gracy is almost 12.

[Zoolady]

Joining this club, but more in lurker mode. Wonder was diagnosed the last week in December and I posted then and got a lot of helpful information, support and encouragement for which we're very grateful.

 

Wonder has osteo of the right shoulder. He, too, was recently raised to 250 mg a day for pain. He gets two 50mg Tramadol in the morning, evening and one at bedtime. In the evening he also gets Metacam.

 

He is on a totally raw diet and is eating like a champ. His right leg is curled backward and he is not using the foot. When he gets up from sleeping or laying down he pants but as soon as he lays down again, it stops. He still greets us at the door with a toy when we come home and still loves his scritches.

 

His lungs are clear but the vet made it very clear that cancer is in his body and manifested in the shoulder. The statistics he quoted, even with clear lungs weren't very encouraging.

[NeylasMom]

Kathy, I just realized you meant 250 mg Tramadol divided over 3x/day. I read it as 250 mg EACH time. You can actually increase from where you are, sorry for the confusiong. On that note, I might back off the Tram some if you add Fentanyl or Gabapentin, but not all of the way. Also, be aware that you are supposed to wean dogs off of Tramadol or other opiates or it can create a pain response. So sorry for my confusion.

 

Kari, I'm so sorry about your foster. I think I missed your earlier message. You're just taking a beating lately.

 

Zoolady, glad Wonder is hanging in there. I remember seeing your thread earlier.

[Guest KathyK]

Thank you Jen for all the advice. Actually, Ward is on 250 mg of Tramadol 3 times/day.Vet said we can go to 300 mg 3 times/day. I was nervous about the dose but found a site that listed up to 4 mg/pound 3 times daily. Ward is 80 pounds. The Vet said dogs are not prone to the seizures as humans are. We plan on switching to the Fentanyl patch when my husband gets back in town on Friday. If Ward becomes oversedated from the Fentanyl I cannot handle him myself.

 

I neglected to tell you that Ward also has SLO, Symmetrical Lupoid Onychodystrophy, an autoimmune disease which results in nail loss. He has lost every nail and some twice. He has not lost any nails for about a year.The other day he tore off another one leaving only the quick. We have him wrapped but occasionally he gets nerve pain shooting up his leg, starts screeching and starts chewing on his upper leg. It is quite pathetic to see.My only recourse is to muzzle him until he quiets down and never leave him alone. He also had a malignant spindle cell sarcoma removed from his paw 2 years ago with no recurrence. The Vet said his hip sarcoma is not related to that.

 

As you can see , my poor boy has had it a little rough. The nail problem has not helped the situation.It usually takes about 5 days until I can unwrap the paw and he is comfortable and not chewing at his leg. I hope that is the case this time.

 

Thanks again for the advice. You seem to be quite knowledgeable.

[NeylasMom]

Thanks again for the advice. You seem to be quite knowledgeable.

Clearly still quite a bit I don't know, just learned something new from you. The seizure bit is actually really good to know, it's the one thing I really worried about when we started combining a lot of meds. If I remember correctly, Gabapentin also lowers the seizure threshold, as does the tri-cyclic anti-depressant we were considering adding so I was nervous.

 

 

On a separate note, I hope no one minds if I share that I am having a really rough day. Dealing with Neyla's loss seems to be getting harder, not easier. I have been really bad about going to work - have been taking time off or calling in sick or "working from home" - the primary reason I think being that I can't bear to come home. I cry every time I drive home from work. My favorite part of my day was coming home to Neyla greeting me at the door and as soon as I start driving I start thinking about her not being there. Zuri is still crated when I'm gone so it's even more obvious then. Today was my first day in the office this week b/c of hte holiday on Monday and then ice yesterday so the drive home was bad.

 

On top of that, I ahve been starting to give Zuri furniture privileges. I would never let him on the couch before - there just wasn't room for all 3 of us and he never showed interest, plus Neyla was here long before him, but he's been getting in bed with me and doing well with that so tonight I lifted him onto the couch. He settled right in and I just lost it. I want to have him up here, but that was Neyla's spot. I can't stop crying. Every time I think I'm getting myself under control, I look over at Zuri and lose it again.

 

I just miss my girl so much. I would give anything to have even just one more minute with her.

[greysmom]

Jen, I'm so sorry you're having a tough time. Everyone grieves in their own way and their own time, and you should give yourself permission to be be sad and miss her. Zuri isn't taking her place, he's assuming her job of comforting you. Remember, he's probably still suffering from the loss too. Dude and Copper "mourned" for six months or so after we lost Libby. Nothing overt or badly depressed, but they were just "off." Then one day, they were better, and I was better, and we could go on. We weren't over the loss, but it was easier to live with, I guess.

 

Also, updating the free chemo offer from OSU. This is what Dr Marin just sent us:

We will be happy to help with the chemo. We can provide carboplatin (4 doses, total treatment) at no cost. The only info that we need is the following:

 

1.- VooDoo’s weight after amputation

2.- A copy of the histopath report (fax 614-292-6464, Greyhound Program attention; or email)

3.- Your Vet’s address.

 

All we ask in exchange is follow up info and if you agree, a blood sample for a DNA study in Greyhounds with osteosarcoma, if you are ok with that, I will send the tubes and instructions for your vet with the chemo.

[Guest KathyK]

Dear Jen,

 

Being new to this forum I have been so focused on Ward that I haven't taken the time to think about what you and everyone else have been going through. I apologize for my selfishness and want all of you to know that I feel for you and dread when the time comes for Ward.

 

How long ago did you lose your beautiful Neyla Jen? I think that you will be having good days and bad days. In time, your sadness will be replaced with happy memories of Neyla. I don't think anyone ever gets over a loss be it human or canine. We just adjust to the person or pup not being there. It seems as if Zuri is just trying to be close to you and Neyla by taking the "spot" on the couch. He sounds like a sweet boy trying to comfort you.

 

Hope the day is going better for you. Hugs from me, Ward and Roxie (our 8 year old grey).

[NeylasMom]

Thanks Chris and Kathy, I appreciate the comforting words. Zuri is definitely a blessing right now. He's absolutely what I need - a totally affectionate, sweet, needy and conversely ridiculously goofy boy. He makes me laugh multiple times every day with his silly antics, I honestly can't convey how much that boy amuses me. And he's always been affectionate, but he has had a few rare incidents of sleep aggression with other dogs in our home and when really really stressed has snapped at my friend a few times (I mean really, like he's done it all of 3 times since I've had him and 2 of those were on the day Neyla was let go), but I was still a little worried about how he would do sharing space on the furniture but he's taken to it like he's always been there and is so snuggly with me. I am truly grateful to have him, I can't imagine what it would be like if my house were empty. I do worry about him too. He doesn't show obvious signs that he's not okay - no behavioral changes, he's eating, etc. But I do sometimes think he's more mopey in the house. I know he is grieving in his own way - that may be why the sharing space has gone so well too, we both need each other right now.

 

Kathy, please don't apologize. I have been where you are and honestly, at least for me, Neyla's illness was all-encompassing. It took all of my energy and my work, my friendships, Zuri's needs were all put on the back burner. You have enough on your plate as it is. Just cherish the time that you have left with Ward and truly spoil him silly. You deserve the chance to have the time to focus your energy on him as much as possible.

[Guest ChasesMum]

Jen, I know what its like to come home to a houndless-house. it SUCKS! Please scritch Zuri for me...sounds like you both need eachother right now!

 

: to all dealing with OS right now...

 

George did't react well to the Fentanyl patch. His skin felt like it had rice krispies under it, or one of those krinkly baby toys. eww!

[Guest snakes]

In regards to medication pricing....Here in MA I compared the vet's price, Walgreens, and Wal-mart for tramadol. I'll simplify it to price per pill.

Vet = 26cents

Walgreens = 13cents (after enrolling in thier prescription saver plan that is $20/yr)

wal-Mart = 12cents

 

I usually go with walmart but went with walgreens jsut because it is slightly more convenient for me and i imagine i may berefilling fairly often.

 

Just a side note of an experience i have had is that i had fedX on 1 tablet gabapentin and 3 tabs tramadol twice a day. then of course i ran out of tramadol on a weekend, so i had to stretch the remainng pills out and sunday night gave him 1 tab tramadol with tehg abapentin. Well he seemed no worse off the next morning so when i got the refill of pills i tried keeping him at one tab of tramadol with gabapentin and he did fine. Today i gave him 2 since we went a bit further on our walk today. Now, getting to the point! There is a phenomenon in humans where sometimes higher doses of opiate or opiate like drugs can actually make the person feel more pain, it is called hyperalgesia. It does happen in dogs. here is a wikipedia link for those interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperalgesia

[Charlies_Dad]

I remember Sherman & Patton and am sure the heartbreak was devastating when Patton was diagnosed so soon after losing Sherman. I can still remember your post about it. I hope you have found some peace now.

 

Another beautiful pup lost to this disease, Duke.

 

I don't know how everyone 'manages' their pups pain even with the meds. I mean mentally manage it because I so panic when my pups are in pain. I am so sorry that Ward and Wonder are going through this and hope that their pain can continue to be managed giving them more time to enjoy life.

 

I see Dude's mom has joined us! I have been following that boy's thread and am hoping for a speedy recovery from his amp. I am sure he will do well and surprise everyone with his recovery. These pups are amazing at bouncing back.

 

Jen, I can only imagine how much you miss Neyla. She was a very special girl and what you did for her in the last 7 months of her life obviously brought you both so close together it's only natural that you will miss her and grieve, you need to let yourself do so. I have a picture of you both from what I believe is one of your trips to Maine at your friend's cabin. It shows your love for each other and I will always remember Neyla's sweet face, she will always be in your heart and while the pain of not having her around is intense at times, know you did everything for her and she knew that. They are here only for a short time and when they are gone, they leave a gap in our lives. I know I cannot bear to have that gap and adopt another soon after because it helps me heal, it really does. Perhaps in time you will be ready and able to find another not to replace Neyla but to help you heal.

[Wonder]

Adding Sparks to the group

 

Starting him on gabapentin and tramadol plus some chinese herbs for pain mgmt. Need to pick up a script for melaxicam and start that tomorrow.

I'm supposed to feed him beef (he eats raw) and complex carbs (sweet potato and some other things that I can't pronounce).

 

I have a disc of his xray to send to Dr C, just to get confirmation although not sure it's needed. I can see it on the xray.

 

It's either osteo or fibrosarcoma. 4-5 months but not sure if that started back in Oct so now he only has weeks?

 

This is a new holistic vet so she did accupuncture and he's passed out now.

[NeylasMom]

Adding Sparks to the group

 

Starting him on gabapentin and tramadol plus some chinese herbs for pain mgmt. Need to pick up a script for melaxicam and start that tomorrow.

I'm supposed to feed him beef (he eats raw) and complex carbs (sweet potato and some other things that I can't pronounce).

 

I have a disc of his xray to send to Dr C, just to get confirmation although not sure it's needed. I can see it on the xray.

 

It's either osteo or fibrosarcoma. 4-5 months but not sure if that started back in Oct so now he only has weeks?

 

This is a new holistic vet so she did accupuncture and he's passed out now.

Kari, I got your PM. I am totally shocked!!! Where is the tumor? Let me know if you need me to send you anything. Which chinese herbs are you using - I have some Max's Formula and Bone Stasis. The bone statis bottle is pretty much full b/c Neyla got gas from it and there's a good bit of the other one as well. I also have a full bottle (270 pills) of Gabapentin that I can send to you and some Tramadol as well.

 

I don't know anything about fibrosarcoma - is the prognosis a lot better if it's that?

 

I'm so sorry. My heart is totally breaking.

[Wonder]

Rear, left leg above the knee

 

I wish i didn't have to work tonight. He's been getting me up every hour the last 2 nights and now he's restless again. I asked the vet about this and she said at night is common. He's hot (his yin, I think) and losing his fur. I wish I had taken notes but I had no idea the appt was going to turn out this way.