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Guest snakes

I just found a reasonably good description of pamidronate for anyone who may be contemplating using it:

 

What is Pamidronate:

Pamidronate is a member of a family of drugs called Bisphosphonates that reduce bone breakdown.

 

How do Bisphosphonates work:

Bone is constantly being worn away and rebuilt by special bone cells. This is called bone turnover or remodelling. Bone turnover can be increased in certain conditions such as osteitis pubis, bone stress and other conditions. Bisphosphonates build up in areas where bone turnover is increased, slow down this process and can help to reduce pain.

 

 

My interpretation is that it basically slows down the process by which the OS eats away at the bone. Our oncologist said he has seen some cases where the bone has essentially rebuilt. For us it seems to reduce the pain significantly and buys time (even if at a cost).

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Guest snakes

I just found a reasonably good description of pamidronate for anyone who may be contemplating using it:

 

What is Pamidronate:

Pamidronate is a member of a family of drugs called Bisphosphonates that reduce bone breakdown.

 

How do Bisphosphonates work:

Bone is constantly being worn away and rebuilt by special bone cells. This is called bone turnover or remodelling. Bone turnover can be increased in certain conditions such as osteitis pubis, bone stress and other conditions. Bisphosphonates build up in areas where bone turnover is increased, slow down this process and can help to reduce pain.

 

 

My interpretation is that it basically slows down the process by which the OS eats away at the bone. Our oncologist said he has seen some cases where the bone has essentially rebuilt. For us it seems to reduce the pain significantly and buys time (even if at a cost).

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My interpretation is that it basically slows down the process by which the OS eats away at the bone. Our oncologist said he has seen some cases where the bone has essentially rebuilt. For us it seems to reduce the pain significantly and buys time (even if at a cost).

Yep, this is what they seem to think (that it also rebuilds bone). There are some small, but interesting studies on this type of info as well as the risks and success rates of using the treatment in dogs iwth osteo on PubMed. Anyone can search and read the abstracts for free. I encourage people who are interested to do so. Same for palliative radiation.

 

 

Shannon, it's good to hear from you. I know how painful those anniversaries are. :grouphug

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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Shannon,

 

Your tribute to beautiful Flash is greyt and his picture brought tears to my eyes. I so wish he was still with you. He will always be remembered and you have honoured him by opening your home to other pups.

Kyle with Stewie ('Super C Ledoux, Super C Sampson x Sing It Blondie) and forever missing my three angels, Jack ('Roy Jack', Greys Flambeau x Miss Cobblepot) and Charlie ('CTR Midas Touch', Leo's Midas x Hallo Argentina) and Shelby ('Shari's Hooty', Flying Viper x Shari Carusi) running free across the bridge.

Gus an coinnich sinn a'rithist my boys and little girl.

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Lily was diagnosed today. She is 7 years and 2 months. I will be researching the hell out of this thing.

I'm so angry--her face isn't even grey yet.

Pam with Sockem the GH, Birdie the JRT, Osorno the chocolate lab, and Shelby the shepherd mix. Missing Clarice (1991-2007) and Lily (2004-2012), always in our hearts.

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Lily was diagnosed today. She is 7 years and 2 months. I will be researching the hell out of this thing.

I'm so angry--her face isn't even grey yet.

Oh no, I'm so sorry. :(

 

If you have a picture you can post, we'd love to see your girl.

 

We're here to help in any way. And there are lots of good resources and links in the first post of this thread to get you started. Hang in there. I remember to this day, and probably always will the way I felt when I got Dr. Couto's email confirming osteo. It was like someone had punched me in the gut so hard. :cry1

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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It breaks my heart when a young one gets it. It was hard enough when my 12 yr had it, but 7 is just a baby. I have a 7 yr old. I got her at 20 months and to me she'll always be my puppy. But I see something like this and it petrifies me.

 

You'll get a lot of good info here.

 

If you have amp questions I can answer some. I went to OSU from NJ for my 12 yr old.

 

PS, she's quite beautiful!

Edited by MP_the4pack
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The vet called back. We're leaning towards amputation. I have to do it--she's only 7 and perfectly healthy otherwise.

It's her rear right leg. I have things I never even thought of. DH asked, "how will she poop?"

I will likely have a thousand questions. Thank you all for going through this with me.

I have read the osteo threads from a distance before, thinking I could dodge this bullet. I'm sorry if I haven't been sympathetic in the past, I was always terrified of this stupid disease.

Pam with Sockem the GH, Birdie the JRT, Osorno the chocolate lab, and Shelby the shepherd mix. Missing Clarice (1991-2007) and Lily (2004-2012), always in our hearts.

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I'm so sorry you have to join this club. Cancer just sucks all around.

 

Lily is beautiful!

 

They do manage to do everything they need to. The first thing Dude did when he came home from the hospital was poop in the yard! They sort of tripod and squat - looks awkward but gets the job done. He does everything now that he used to do ith four legs. Except dig - he can't quite figure that out yet.

 

Here's viceo of Dude running around on the beach a couple months ago.

 

http://good-times.webshots.com/video/3098099930013527144kShvOC

Edited by greysmom

Chris - Mom to: Felicity (DeLand), and Andi (Braska Pandora)

52592535884_69debcd9b4.jpgsiggy by Chris Harper, on Flickr

Angels: Libby (Everlast), Dorie (Dog Gone Holly), Dude (TNJ VooDoo), Copper (Kid's Copper), Cash (GSI Payncash), Toni (LPH Cry Baby), Whiskey (KT's Phys Ed), Atom, Lilly

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Okay, Lily went to the vet today to check her newly acquired limp AND for routine vaccinations. After the X-Ray, diagnosis, shock, etc. the vaccinations never happened. Should I hold off on these?

Pam with Sockem the GH, Birdie the JRT, Osorno the chocolate lab, and Shelby the shepherd mix. Missing Clarice (1991-2007) and Lily (2004-2012), always in our hearts.

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Okay, Lily went to the vet today to check her newly acquired limp AND for routine vaccinations. After the X-Ray, diagnosis, shock, etc. the vaccinations never happened. Should I hold off on these?

 

 

Pam, I am so sorry to read of Lily's diagnosis. We held off on vaccinations with Charlie (amp & chemo) however you should speak to your vet to make sure. As Jen, stated we are here for you and there are several of us that have gone the amp route and will be here for any questions, concerns, rants, etc. It is a little bit of a roller coaster ride initially but your girl will rebound and you will be shocked when she does. Tell your DH, pooping will NOT be a problem. Our Charlie had his rear left leg amputated and the only time we have had to assist him was the first few days after amputation just to make sure he got his balance.

Kyle with Stewie ('Super C Ledoux, Super C Sampson x Sing It Blondie) and forever missing my three angels, Jack ('Roy Jack', Greys Flambeau x Miss Cobblepot) and Charlie ('CTR Midas Touch', Leo's Midas x Hallo Argentina) and Shelby ('Shari's Hooty', Flying Viper x Shari Carusi) running free across the bridge.

Gus an coinnich sinn a'rithist my boys and little girl.

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I can't advise regarding the vaccines, but have a sling available to help steady her during the first few days. Especially when she thinks she's got this tripod thing down and tries to do things she's not ready for.

It'll be most helpful for her peeing and pooping the first few days.

 

I had a front leg amp. So there were no concerns there. But I recently had a girl who's back end gave out. She needed the sling for support during her 'duties'.

 

Good luck. This is a rough decision no matter what. But you are doing it out of love for her.

 

By the way, my baby was 12 when she had her amp and she adjusted very well and had a happy painfree 6 months.

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Lily was diagnosed today. She is 7 years and 2 months. I will be researching the hell out of this thing.

I'm so angry--her face isn't even grey yet.

 

 

Crap.

 

I'm so sorry. :(

With Buster Bloof (UCME Razorback 89B-51359) and Gingersnap Ginny (92D-59450). Missing Pepper, Berkeley, Ivy, Princess and Bauer at the bridge.

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The vet called back. We're leaning towards amputation. I have to do it--she's only 7 and perfectly healthy otherwise.

It's her rear right leg. I have things I never even thought of. DH asked, "how will she poop?"

I will likely have a thousand questions. Thank you all for going through this with me.

I have read the osteo threads from a distance before, thinking I could dodge this bullet. I'm sorry if I haven't been sympathetic in the past, I was always terrified of this stupid disease.

I am so sorry. Lucy was only 4, so I know the feeling. We opted for amp and chemo and she's doing great five months later and counting (hers was also rear right). Believe me, they adapt. She will be able to poop just fine. The first few days are the hardest, of course, but it doesn't take long for them to adjust. They learn to move the remaining rear leg in just a couple of inches and are able to balance themselves. Lucy gets around just fine and even does zoomies in the yard! I'm sure you'll read through all of the info/links in the beginning of this thread, so I won't repeat, just let us know if you have any questions or need anything. When I was in your shoes, being able to talk to people who had been through the exact same thing was invaluable.

 

Oh - I should add - Lucy's amp was in February and we live in CT, and it was a particularly icy month. I had also just had ankle surgery and was on crutches for 6 weeks, so I could not help her get around at all. It was the absolute WORST TIMING. The entire yard was a slick sheet of ice, and I don't know how she did it, but she managed to get out there and do her business without falling. So if she can do it in February, Lily will be just fine in July. :grouphug

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Always missing our angel Lucy, a four year osteo survivor.

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So sorry to have another join the club. 7 is so young, but at the same time, it makes the decision very easy for you since she is still reliably mobile. It's very likely that she will adapt really quickly to being a tripod (especially with a rear leg amp).

 

If you haven't already, read BigOrangeDog's blog post about "what to expect" (link is on the first post of this thread). It gives a very honest, straightforward look at what you'll need to expect. When I was considering amputation for Sutra, I sat down with that and made a list of things to do pre-surgery and wrote down all the tips for organizing the house, things to have on hand, etc. for when he would come home. Unfortunately later on I decided that he wasn't a candidate (his osteo was in his shoulder)...but I am still very glad that I read her post because I feel like I understand everything better, and should I encounter this monster again with one of my other dogs, I will be a little more prepared to face it head on.

 

We're all here for you and we've all taken different paths, but many have walked the path you're headed down and you'll get some great advice from people who have had great success (1 year ampiversaries coming up!!) with the amp and chemo route :nod

 

Wishing nothing but the best for both of you :grouphug

 

BauersMom, how are you guys doing?

Kristin in Moline, IL USA with Ozzie (MRL Crusin Clem), Clarice (Clarice McBones), Latte and Sage the IGs, and the kitties: Violet and Rose
Lovingly Remembered: Sutra (Fliowa Sutra) 12/02/97-10/12/10, Pinky (Pick Me) 04/20/03-11/19/12, Fritz (Fritz Fire) 02/05/01 - 05/20/13, Ace (Fantastic Ace) 02/05/01 - 07/05/13, and Carrie (Takin the Crumbs) 05/08/99 - 09/04/13.

A cure for cancer can't come soon enough.--

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The vet called back. We're leaning towards amputation. I have to do it--she's only 7 and perfectly healthy otherwise.

It's her rear right leg. I have things I never even thought of. DH asked, "how will she poop?"

I will likely have a thousand questions. Thank you all for going through this with me.

I have read the osteo threads from a distance before, thinking I could dodge this bullet. I'm sorry if I haven't been sympathetic in the past, I was always terrified of this stupid disease.

 

A few important things regarding amputation:

 

Make sure that the vet hospital has 24/7 on-site care. Most dogs who don't survive did not have round the clock monitoring and vet care. If your vet can't provide this, spend the extra to go to a specialty practice that has a 24 hour ICU.

 

Make sure the vet contacts Ohio State University to get their greyhound amputation protocol. Greyhounds are different than other dogs and need different medications than other dogs. For instance, it is critical that the hound receives amicar (aminocaproic acid) for the first 5 days after surgery. This need is unique to the greyhound and most vets are unfamiliar with this. Most vets do not stock it and will need to make arrangements to have it available. Amicar controls the post-amp bleeding that is common in greyhounds due to their inability to form strong clots. Note that all preop clotting tests will be normal and greyhounds still bleed. OSU also recommends that the hound stay in an ICU (24/7 monitoring by vets) for 2 to 3 days post amputation and in the hospital for 3 to 5 days after amputation. The surgeon should also be aware that greyhounds tend to get hyperthermia during anesthesia and should be watching for it. Lastly, OSU has found that a combination of lidocaine, fentanyl and ketamine are the prefered drugs post amputation. Since greyhounds tend to be very sensitive and can psych themselves into a full panic attack, it is best to keep them out of it for the first day or two.

 

It is also important to get the hound up and moving around as soon as possible after the surgery. OSU takes them outside on a gurney the day of the surgery and stands them up, encouraging them to do business. They do this several times a day and with this encouragement, the dog often walks a few steps just hours after the surgery. This helps them realize that they can move on their own and also gets circulation going.

 

Ohio State does at least one greyhound leg amputation every week. From other people, I have heard it is cheaper here than many places on the east coast. In addition, a local greyhound home will put you up for the time that you are in Ohio, saving you hotel bills. So if you are interested in traveling to OSU for the amputation, just let me know.

 

link to OSU: https://greyhound.osu.edu/consultationservice/

 

By the way, my Joe was diagnosed shortly after he turned 7. He had an amputation at OSU. He had IV chemo (suramin and doxorubicin) as part of a research trial at OSU. He continues on a low dose chemo protocol (also provided by another study) and will for the rest of his life. He is almost 1 year post amputation and is a very happy boy.

 

Jane

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Pam, I noticed you're in Northern, NJ. I'm in Hunterdon County.

 

I just wanted to let you know that I took the trip to OSU when my Diamond was diagnosed. She was 2 weeks shy of 12. So I wanted Dr. Couto's advice if he thought she could handle being a tripod at her age.

 

It took 9 hrs. I drove out on Wed. A greyhound person out there (Joejoesmom) put me up for the duration. Diamond spent Thursday being checked out inside and out. It was determined she could handle amputation. She was done Friday and released late Mon afternoon. We drove home Tues.

 

One thing I am very thankful for, they kept her in the hospital for recovery. It was not an abnormally long time, in fact it was a day short of their average amputation stay. Many vets discharge the dogs the day after surgery, and for me something this traumatic needs hospital time.

 

It may or may not be feasible for you, but I did want to let you know it's an option. My local vets had no problem with it either.

I ended up making the trip to Ohio twice that year (the other time for Dimaond's sister Pearl). It's not bad at all. In fact if cancer hits any of my crew, I will not hesitate to do that drive.

 

Where in north jersey are you? If I can be of assistance at any time I'm here.

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BauersMom, how are you guys doing?

 

Well, I had a good "ugly cry" on my way to lunch today, so there's that. :rolleyes:

 

Otherwise, we're working with OSU to determine best course of action. I am trying to get to a final decision today so we can just move on.

 

Here's a question I have - since we first noticed his limp in early March, and the diagnosis happened in July, is the prognosis worse with the time lapse? Or should we expect a similar prognosis to dogs diagnosed right as the limp first appeared and take action then?

 

He's still 100% using the leg, and roaching up a storm. He hops off the ramp into the yard leading with that leg, which scares me. It's not a big step but still.

With Buster Bloof (UCME Razorback 89B-51359) and Gingersnap Ginny (92D-59450). Missing Pepper, Berkeley, Ivy, Princess and Bauer at the bridge.

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Guest Puddyrun

Lily was diagnosed today. She is 7 years and 2 months. I will be researching the hell out of this thing.

I'm so angry--her face isn't even grey yet.

I'm so sorry you had to get such terrible news too. My boy was diagnosed last week. The people on this thread are full of useful information. Their input has made me feel much better and informed about what to do.

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Here's a question I have - since we first noticed his limp in early March, and the diagnosis happened in July, is the prognosis worse with the time lapse? Or should we expect a similar prognosis to dogs diagnosed right as the limp first appeared and take action then?

Unfortunately there's no way to answer that question. There are so many factors for each individual case that comparing doesn't make a ton of sense. For example, you suspect your dog has had it since March, but is it fair to compare that to someone who saw no symptoms prior to dx, but whose tumor has clearly exploded on x-ray. Which dog is better off? Which one has the best chance for survival?

 

What makes more sense is looking at the severity of the tumor on the x-ray (degree of bone loss, new lytic growth, and bone "explosion") and how long you can estimate your dog has had it, which for you is since at least March and then balance that against the information that this disease metastasizes quickly and *most* dogs already have microscopic metastases (which the chemo is supposed to address) when diagnosed.

 

Having said that, here are my observations, based on quite limited anecdotal information and my own opinions, not on anything substantial: It seems to me that there is a prolonged period when the cancer is growing more slowly and pain is more easily controlled or comes and goes on its own. Then there is a very sharp, quick decline toward the end, over the course of maybe only weeks or sometimes a couple of months. Generally at that time, pain is obvious, the cancer is quite prominent on x-ray, and/or there is visible swelling around the tumor area of the leg. How long is the gradual period before the sharp decline? Anecdotal evidence would support 6 mos-1 yr+ and it seems that for those folks who choose palliative care only and get 5 or 6 or 7 months (or even 1 year) it's ultimately the tumor and not metastases that lead to the decision to let the dog go.

 

So I am starting to think that while osteo does metastasize fairly aggressively, it may not do so until the disease has progressed a good bit, the problem being that often the dog isn't diagnosed until after that happens because until then, there aren't always clear signs that the disease is there.

 

And of course, the whole purpose of the chemo is to address the microscopic mets that may exist and now if you can afford it, there are some additional long term treatments (like Palladia, $$$) to continue to keep them at bay.

 

I'm not sure my opinion is worth a darn here, but I know Dr. Couto or his team won't give any sort of info on that topic because they've yet to truly study the progression of the disease. I asked them repeatedly to estimate where Neyla's tumor was in terms of progression (not to give me a timeline for her, just to discuss how bad it looked) and they wouldn't even do that.

 

But really, I am not a vet, or anything near a vet, so take my theories with a grain of salt. :blah

 

He hops off the ramp into the yard leading with that leg, which scares me. It's not a big step but still.

Can you block off the sides of the ramp somehow so he can't do that anymore? I would be nervous about him jumping down off of things onto the affected leg.

Edited by NeylasMom

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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That's kinda what I figured - and your explanation makes sense. And of course the onco vet was hesitant to say anything about the progression on the x-rays too, though the bone changes were dramatic, there's no clear indication on how fast things are progressing. We'd probably need to compare x-rays over a course of time to determine that. Like I said before, crapshoot.

 

The end of the ramp to the yard is almost at regular "step" height - it's not the sides that's the problem, but that he hopps off the end with that bad leg, not his good leg, almost always. Maybe he's "left handed" ? :huh

With Buster Bloof (UCME Razorback 89B-51359) and Gingersnap Ginny (92D-59450). Missing Pepper, Berkeley, Ivy, Princess and Bauer at the bridge.

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We'd probably need to compare x-rays over a course of time to determine that.

Yeah, and unfortunately while you're doing that, time is flying by.

 

If you think you are going to proceed with the amp, you could always do one last x-ray day of to see if changes would alter your decision. With Neyla, we took x-rays pretty regularly and it was at least 5 months until we saw any changes on x-ray. Hence my oncologist continuing to tell me it *might* not be osteo (idiot <_<). :P

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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Just to inject our experience, Dude showed absolutely no sign of any limping or pain in his back leg in the days and months prior to breaking it. He was out in the yard doing zoomies when it snapped. He does not have very robust bone structure anyway - he's one of those tall, long, thin-legged greyhounds - so the cancer would not have had to work for very long to erode the bone enough to break.

 

Bauersmom, what about making a dirt ramp off the end of the step?? That way he wouldn't even have to step off.

Chris - Mom to: Felicity (DeLand), and Andi (Braska Pandora)

52592535884_69debcd9b4.jpgsiggy by Chris Harper, on Flickr

Angels: Libby (Everlast), Dorie (Dog Gone Holly), Dude (TNJ VooDoo), Copper (Kid's Copper), Cash (GSI Payncash), Toni (LPH Cry Baby), Whiskey (KT's Phys Ed), Atom, Lilly

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