Grain Free Diet?

[Guest chaucersmom]

My beloved grey, whom I've had for 9 years now, is going on 12 years old. He is very healthy, except for one problem: GAS!!! This has become an issue primarily since he lost his companion, Tanner, nearly 3 years ago. I have tried, over the years, various high-end foods, which serve to only cause him increased cramping and even diarrhea. The only food that I have found to give him solid pooh is Pro-plan sensitive stomach. I've tried many many other "better" more expensive brands; I've tried adding yogurt, pumpkin, etc. and nothing curbs it. Getting him a new companion isn't really an option, though I know he is very lonely. My significant other and I are preparing to combine households and this is one issue that causes us GREAT frustration... We need help and so does Chaucer!!!

 

I have heard that grain free diets (Taste of the Wild), enzymes, and even FortiFlora may all help this issue. Without torturing my guy's belly, trying multiple different things, what can anyone offer to guide me through this?

 

Chris, Nik, and Chaucer

Edited December 19, 2010 by chaucersmom

[OwnedBySummer]

I'm sure knowledgeable people will chime in. I've only had Summer since May, so I'm not one of them. But from what I've heard... you may reduce it... but you'll never eliminate it. Greyhound farts are just one of them there things. As for grain free, Summer is being fed grain free. I feed her Taste Of The Wild and she loves it.

[rschultz]

lexie is on blue diamond grain free food. There are a lot of brands now grain free. I give Lexie a slice of sweet potato with her food. It seems to firm her up a bit.

 

fortiflora didn't help lexie. We use to add dried beet pulp which helped a lot. a couple of tablespoons each meal. After about 2 years I didn't need ot add that anymore. I just add the sweeet potato

[Hubcitypam]

Yogurt and pumpkin have never had any effect in my experience as far as stool firming or gas and the high dollar foods only caused more runny poop.

 

Old and cranky woman chiming in here but "grain free" to me is the newest dog food food marketing tool. "No wheat, no corn no soy" just became so passe... I've had best results feeding food with grain and a healthy dose of beet pulp if a dog had an iffy tummy.

 

I do often wonder if all the gas people post about is caused by too rich foods that people feel forced to feed based on forums such as this. Well more than 100 greys have passed thru my living rooms and I'd say maybe two or three had gas problems.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Hubcitypam

[Guest KennelMom]

But from what I've heard... you may reduce it... but you'll never eliminate it. Greyhound farts are just one of them there things.

 

I have to disagree. Just like people, dogs can get gas for a variety of reasons but consistent, omnipresent and particularly foul gas is not normal. It would indicate that something isn't right. Perhaps the food (grains, for example, can be problematic to the GI tracts of people and dogs)...long term exposure to GI irritants can disrupt the natural flora of the system, furthering the problem.

 

To keep a long story short, I think a grain free food is most appropriate for dogs (and people, but that's another thread ), but realize if the problems have been going on for a long time it may not resolve in just a few days on a new food. I would find a grain free food with a protein your dog hasn't eaten before and switch him cold turkey. Also add in some probiotics for a while and see how it goes. We feed Taste of the Wild High Prairie, which seems to agree with all of our crew. No gas (unless they get non-grainfree treats).

 

The bottom line is, if the food doesn't give your dog gas and the poops are fine, then go for it. If you are getting a lot of gas and/or soft poops, something ain't right and you need to fix it.

Edited December 19, 2010 by KennelMom

[MaryJane]

Try feeding hamburger, rice, and vegetables for a few weeks and see if the gas goes away (pick up some doggie vitamins to mix in). I have only had problems with persistent gas in my dogs when I feed "Kibble".

[juliemac]

Agree on trying the rice/beef mixture to settle the tummy for a bit.

 

to prepare rice/hamburger diet easily, just put rice & raw hamburger in a stock pot with ~twice the water that the rice requires and boil them (lid on) for the time required for the rice ... you'll want to keep the fat content of the hamburger at 80% or above, though, because you won't be draining it off with this method. This allows for easy preparation that makes use of the 'chubs' you can get (and if the chub isn't 80% lean, balance out the fat content by adding a small package of much leaner beef)

 

Also, my hounds dislike veggies and fruit in general (Riley sometimes likes bananas or sweet potatoes ... they appeal to his sweet tooth). I 'hide' the veggies in his food by mixing in baby food.

[Guest chaucersmom]

Try feeding hamburger, rice, and vegetables for a few weeks and see if the gas goes away (pick up some doggie vitamins to mix in). I have only had problems with persistent gas in my dogs when I feed "Kibble".

I have tried this before, and OH MY!! It's almost worse, not to mention runny, to the point of indoor accidents. Then again, I was feeding a different food at the time so maybe it was a combination of the two...

 

Thanks for the suggestion.

[Guest dee]

I found that some of the treats even though they are a small quantity cause gas. Perhaps try checking what you're giving in treats.

[Guest nuri]

i tried different foods, forti-flora, yogurt (TOTAL backfire!), and rice with little to no change in nuri's toxic gas. when i switched him to nature's domain grain-free (from costco...not super pricey!), he has been incredible since! the added bonus is that he actually runs for his food now, where in the past, he used to just eat only when he was hungry!

 

as a human with tons of food sensitivities that create a host of different responses from my body, i can only imagine that dogs have sensitivities, too! it is definitely worth a shot for your pupper!

[Guest Ola]

I agree with KennelMom that gas is NOT a given for greyhounds. Our hound was very gassy indeed, also had soft stools almost all the time, until we switched to raw diet (which incidentally we didn't do for the tummy benefits but to avoid dental issues). We've been feeding raw for about 5 years now to both of our dogs with great results and while gas does happen, it's very rare and happens only when they've had something unusually rich or bothersome to their tummies. One of the dogs might have some gas every 1-2 months or so.

 

Now the raw diet that we feed is grain free, but I don't know that the same results would be had with a grain-free kibble diet. I never tried a grain-free kibble before we went to raw but from hearing others' experience (had digestive issues, didn't get much better with grain-free kibble, but resolved quickly on raw) I would guess that the two are not comparable.

 

BTW if you do decide to try a homemade diet (as someone suggested above) either raw or cooked, be sure that you include a calcium component. In a raw diet that would be bone, in a cooked diet you need a calcium supplement of some type because feeding cooked bones is a no-no. Just feeding beef and rice would not be a good diet for more than a few days IMO due to the lack of calcium.

[Guest NJgrey]

Poop wise, the two foods that Ellie has done the best on are:

 

- Wellness reduced fat core - grain free, various high quality protein sources

 

- Hill's Prescription diet, digestive issues - composed primarily of corn, soy, wheat and pork fat

 

 

I like the ingredient list of the former much better so that's why she's on it - plus the later made her itchy and gave her bad breath. But still, all things being equal she tolerated it very well.

 

So the moral of the story is, I don't know about the whole grain free thing. I don't know that they get anything special from having grains in their food, and I do believe that often they're added as a filler.

 

But if the dog does well on them, is it a big deal? Nah. Who cares.

[Guest Swifthounds]

But from what I've heard... you may reduce it... but you'll never eliminate it. Greyhound farts are just one of them there things.

 

I have to disagree. Just like people, dogs can get gas for a variety of reasons but consistent, omnipresent and particularly foul gas is not normal. It would indicate that something isn't right. Perhaps the food (grains, for example, can be problematic to the GI tracts of people and dogs)...long term exposure to GI irritants can disrupt the natural flora of the system, furthering the problem.

 

To keep a long story short, I think a grain free food is most appropriate for dogs (and people, but that's another thread ), but realize if the problems have been going on for a long time it may not resolve in just a few days on a new food. I would find a grain free food with a protein your dog hasn't eaten before and switch him cold turkey. Also add in some probiotics for a while and see how it goes. We feed Taste of the Wild High Prairie, which seems to agree with all of our crew. No gas (unless they get non-grainfree treats).

 

The bottom line is, if the food doesn't give your dog gas and the poops are fine, then go for it. If you are getting a lot of gas and/or soft poops, something ain't right and you need to fix it.

 

Agreeing with Heather here. Grains, especially in the quantity eaten by Americans, can wreak a lot of havoc in our omnivore GI tract. For a dog, with its shorter GI tract of a carnivore, it is even more of an issue.

 

That said, grain free doesn't mean "carb and veggie free" as well so while it may be less irritating for a dog with a specific grain allergy (corn/wheat etc.) a grain free food that's kibbled by necessity of processing has to have lots of junk carbs, some of which may be more irritating to a particular dog. Many of the kibbles in both categories have lots of soy in difefrent forms, which causes irritations of its own.

 

I can honestly say on my worst, most frustrating day of feeding raw I've never considered going back. I don't miss the ear cleaning, the gas, the loads of poop, the recalls. Ugh.

 

As Ola said above, if you opt for a homemade or raw diet, make sure you have calcium to balance out the phosphorus.

[Guest Wasserbuffel]

I haven't had gas problems with my girl. She's been on Taste of the Wild (Pacific Stream and High Prairie) since a couple months after I brought her home. I think I could count on one hand the times I've heard any gas and I only remember one green cloud in the ten months we've had her.

 

Don't know if that helps. Grain-free certainly isn't causing any gas, at least in my household. Hopefully it helps your boy with his tummy issues.

[Guest Giselle]

As mentioned before, "grain free" is somewhat of a marketing gimmick.

 

Instead of "Chicken and Rice", you get "Chicken and potatoes".

 

There's still complex carbs in there that most dogs don't digest all too well. The issue, then, is the non-meat component of the food, be it rice, another grain, or a tuber like potato. Certain "grain free" foods, however, have a much lower ratio of potatoes to meat, like Innova EVO. You might want to look into that one.

[Guest chaucersmom]

I made the switch (still in the gradual process actually) to TOTW Pacific Stream and what a MAJOR difference! Plus, he eats immediately, something he hasn't done in years!!! Poops are soft right now, but as he adjusts, I'm sure all will be fine. Gas is still awful but a whole lot LESS! I'll take even a little improvement...

 

THANK YOU EVERYONE!

[Guest Diadado]

i tried different foods, forti-flora, yogurt (TOTAL backfire!), and rice with little to no change in nuri's toxic gas. when i switched him to nature's domain grain-free (from costco...not super pricey!), he has been incredible since! the added bonus is that he actually runs for his food now, where in the past, he used to just eat only when he was hungry!

 

as a human with tons of food sensitivities that create a host of different responses from my body, i can only imagine that dogs have sensitivities, too! it is definitely worth a shot for your pupper!

 

 

Nature's Domain definitely firms up their poop. It's $29.99 for 35 lbs if you can find it - not every Costco carries it right now.

[Guest KennelMom]

As mentioned before, "grain free" is somewhat of a marketing gimmick.

 

Instead of "Chicken and Rice", you get "Chicken and potatoes".

 

There's still complex carbs in there that most dogs don't digest all too well. The issue, then, is the non-meat component of the food, be it rice, another grain, or a tuber like potato. Certain "grain free" foods, however, have a much lower ratio of potatoes to meat, like Innova EVO. You might want to look into that one.

 

It's not a marketing gimmick. Grains are inappropriate for reasons entirely separate from the fact that they are carbs, complex or otherwise. I will agree that carbs aren't entirely ideal for dogs, but I wouldn't put potato on the same level as grains, esp grains like wheat.

[Guest Giselle]

As mentioned before, "grain free" is somewhat of a marketing gimmick.

 

Instead of "Chicken and Rice", you get "Chicken and potatoes".

 

There's still complex carbs in there that most dogs don't digest all too well. The issue, then, is the non-meat component of the food, be it rice, another grain, or a tuber like potato. Certain "grain free" foods, however, have a much lower ratio of potatoes to meat, like Innova EVO. You might want to look into that one.

 

It's not a marketing gimmick. Grains are inappropriate for reasons entirely separate from the fact that they are carbs, complex or otherwise. I will agree that carbs aren't entirely ideal for dogs, but I wouldn't put potato on the same level as grains, esp grains like wheat.

Curious then. What is it specifically about grains that is not biologically appropriate for dogs more so than tubers? Granted, they are of different parts of the plant (potatoes being technical "shoots" and grains being the fruiting body and cotyledons-endosperm-what-not). But, taking that into account, shouldn't grains be more nutritious than potatoes? So, what is it?

[Guest Swifthounds]

Curious then. What is it specifically about grains that is not biologically appropriate for dogs more so than tubers? Granted, they are of different parts of the plant (potatoes being technical "shoots" and grains being the fruiting body and cotyledons-endosperm-what-not). But, taking that into account, shouldn't grains be more nutritious than potatoes? So, what is it?

 

 

Not for a dog. For a dog they're all inappropriate, but grains are merely fillers with no accessible nutritional value. I'll agree with Heather that there's a difference, especially in effect on glucose levels and allergens. Where they're pretty much the same, and therefore "grain free" is largely a gimmick, is that they're largely inaccessible and biologically unavailable to carnivores. For humans, the difference between vegetable, complex carbs, and grains are degrees of lessening nutritional value, since we are biologically designed as omnivores. For dogs, all three categories are inappropriate, promote inflammation, and fundamentally misunderstand canine nutrition.

 

The only thing complex carbs, vegetables, and grains are good for in the diet of an otherwise healthy canine is in separating a consumer from his cash without investing a lot of money to make a waste product into a marketable item.

[Batmom]

Dogs actually use carbs pretty well.

 

The grain-free stuff is just the latest fad, for people and for dogs.

 

Feed what your dog does well on and ignore the hype.

[Guest Swifthounds]

If by pretty well, you mean they can survive on them and that you'll get to see them again in the yard, then absolutely!

 

As I've said before, nothing horrible about feeding carbs, it's just not ideal nutrition. There's a lot of well-marketed and pricey foods that sell themselves well and don't offer any better assortment of carbs for the money - they just lure you in with exotic sounding ingredients. The condition of the dog tells the story. If the dog is lean muscle, with good coat and no accumulation of ear gunk, firm stools, and good energy there's no reason to switch to a more expensive diet.

[Guest mcsheltie]

I do have to disagree with swiftdogs that grain & veggies have no benefit to the canine. (here comes a long one ) My opinion is based on experience having formulated many raw diets, running the numbers for others concerned if their homemade diet was balanced and having worked extensively with a canine nutritionist.

 

90% of homemade raw & cooked diets have huge deficiencies in B vitamins. This includes prey model diets. Check out the USDA web site or nutritiondata.com and take a look the amount of B vitamins present in meat products. Then look at the NRC daily requirement of B Vitamins. There is a big gap. The easiest fix to these deficiencies are including grain in the diet. Other nutrients that are usually missing in home diets are Zinc, Potassium and Manganese. These are also easily added to the diet thru plant matter.

 

There is a never ending debate whether dogs are omnivores or carnivores. But whichever is indeed true, no one can debate the fact the dogs are opportunistic. Left to their own devises they will eat anything that doesn't eat them first. In the process of doing that they ingest many varieties of plant matter.

 

I personally know several dogs that have such severe IBD or food allergies that they are not able to eat meat of any kind. They have lived for years (in excellent health) on a diet consisting of grains &/or veggies. Protein coming exclusively from grain. As an aside: care must be taken that all the essential amino acids are provided, these diets were put together by a certified nutritionist.

 

With that said, I feed a raw diet without any type of plant matter because they digest it more easily (proof is in the poop ) But I do have to supplement the above nutrients, plus a couple others to achieve a balanced diet. For instance nutritional yeast is a good source of B Vits. In order for dogs to digest grains & veggies they have to be either thoroughly cooked, predigested or in the case of veggies pulverize the _rap out of them to break down the plant walls.

 

Plant matter (including a small amount of fruit) provides phyto nutrients that are increasingly being shown to combat cancer and keep the genes that trigger cancers turned off. I just came back from a canine nutrition seminar and the body of evidence that a small amount of fresh veggies, a tablespoon of tomato paste, turmeric & black pepper added to your dog's daily diet can make a huge difference in cancer rates is rapidly growing. Several studies cited were actually done on dogs, rather than extrapolating evidence from rat studies! For several years the positive effect of red raspberry seed powder have been growing. I can give anyone interested a link to buy a CD transcript from the seminar. PM me. It was very exciting information.

 

Grains and veggie in processed dog food can be another matter entirely. If they did provide nutritional benefit there would be no need for the long list of synthetic supplements added to dog food. Because of the over processing and low quality of the ingredients used, these grains are hard for them to digest and nutritional value is doubtful. The by products of their digestion add more work to the renal system (in addition to causing gas!) A month or so ago I posted about a dog food called Nature's Logic. This is the only dog food in existence that has no need to add synthetic nutrients added after cooking. The food itself provides the needed nutrients.

 

On the flip side; grains and veggies provided in a homemade balanced diet have great nutritional value because they are fresh and of high quality. And always remember that the knowledge that we humans have only brushes the surface. Foods that we think don't do much, may in reality be providing benefits we do not even know exist.

[Guest mcsheltie]

The condition of the dog tells the story. If the dog is lean muscle, with good coat and no accumulation of ear gunk, firm stools, and good energy there's no reason to switch to a more expensive diet.

Just to play the devil's advocate Let me say you can't really judge a good diet by how the dog looks. Let me use myself as an example.

 

As well as I feed my cats & dogs, I do the opposite for myself. Often I only stop and eat when I am so hungry and shaky I HAVE to eat. I usually go thru McDonalds because it is easy and I can do it while out running errands. I do not like fruits and veggies and rarely eat them. I buy synthetic vitamins, but rarely take them because I don't think of it.

 

I look like the picture of health. I am 52 and I still get carded (if the bar is dark enough ) Most people think I am in my early thirties. My Dr said I am the picture of health. My blood work is perfect, my cholesterol is low (it should be thru the roof on a diet of Mickey-D's) my blood pressure is low. But I am aware that my deficient diet is going to catch up to me some day. I am the dog who looks like they are doing well on Science Diet, Iams or an unbalanced raw diet!

[Guest Swifthounds]

As always, I thoroughly enjoy your posts, Julie. The time and care you put in really shows.

 

Without getting too far off the original train of this thread, I have two questions (and you can PM or post elsewhere if it would sidetrack the thread too much): What do you use as your basis for nutritional requirements? Re; the studies on phyto nutrients and dogs, do you know what else the dogs were fed (ie other than those items they were assessing in the study)?

 

I wholeheartedly agree that where your options are grains and starches or certain death, the former is really the only option. Nature may not value IBD dogs, but we humans tend to grow attached.