It Happened...

[Guest lynne893]

We adopted Swiftie and Greta, two females, about 10 weeks ago. They were not fostered together, they only met the day we got them.

 

So far, they've been getting along really well. Not the closest of buddies, but they seemed great together- pretty tolerant of each other and goofy. Swiftie is the alfa and Greta generally succumbs to whatever Swiftie wants. Greta has been the "follower."

 

In the last week, I've seen Greta's personality come out more, and she's been playing with toys more often and more excitedly, and even chasing the ball when I throw it (whereas before she would just chase Swiftie who was going after the ball).

 

Today I came home from work (DH works at home many days so he was here) and I took them outside to play catch and run around.

 

The first attempt at throwing the ball for fetch and they both went after it at full speed, and of course, scrambling for it, a fight broke out. It wasn't just one nip, it quickly turned into what looked like a full-on dog fight. I yelled "NO!" and "OFF!" but within seconds I just started kicking between them to separate them. My husband ran out and it was over pretty fast.

 

No serious injuries. Greta (the beta dog) has a 2" tuft of fur missing from her neck (you only see the skin) and a "puncture" wound that really didn't fully break through the skin. I can tell it will bruise and be an "owie" for several days.

 

Mostly, they're just rattled and so am I!

 

They seem to be doing fine around each other now. Bottom line, I guess I just need to hear that it will be okay. That these things happen. That they will live together and eventually accept each other 100% as pack mates with more time. (It's only been 2.5 months!) It's "normal" for dogs to have a scrap every now and again and that doesn't mean that they can't live together, right? Or that they'll wind up fighting a lot.

 

Obviously, we will not be throwing tennis balls that way anymore. (Which is unfortunate because they both fetch!!!!)

 

Any other advice? Thank you.

[kamsmom]

Throw the tennis balls for them but only do it one on one. It's a high value toy for both of them and they are not going to do well together but that doesn't mean you can't still play.

 

Outside in the yard they need to be muzzled to avoid the challenging behavior.

[Guest PhillyPups]

I am sorry you had to see this side of them. It is scary.

 

If there is any puncture, I would give antibiotics as the wound can get infected. Secondly I would muzzle both when either out in the yard running or left unattended. I would also take one at a time out for fetch. A neck bite means they are serious. Yes they can live together, I would just take precautions. Muzzles are like seatbelts. I buckle up everytime I get the car - it does not mean I plan on having an accident.

 

Breathe in and breathe out. Mine will get verbal with each other, my job is to not let it go any further.

[TheFullHouse]

It's competition, plain and simple. Both were going after the ball, both want to win. I'd avoid throwing the ball to both at the same time and be aware that if they start chasing each other in the yard playing, it's possible that they will again have words. I'd muzzle them both when in the yard, especially when they're playing. I muzzle all of mine, even though I let them out two and three at a time because once they start playing, it's easy for it to turn competitive and next thing you know they're growling and going at each other. They will both be safer with muzzles than without.

 

I also wanted to mention to watch them in the house with toys, they may have words over them in the house also.

[Guest mountain4greys]

As the others have said, muzzles are a must when there are 2 or more running together. Sorry you and your hounds had to go through this. Just glad it wasn't worse.

 

Just saw Judy's post above mine. Yes, watch them in the house also, and if need be, muzzle there to.

Edited October 22, 2010 by mountain4greys

[Wonder]

I only play ball with Diamond alone now.

Otherwise, they play with their muzzles on. I have a toy with nubs on it and they can still get it with the muzzle on.

[greysmom]

It's only been 2 1/2 months. Everything will be fine. Don't panic. Have a nice glass of wine!

 

It's really just been 2 1/2 months! They are both still settling in and, as you mentioned, their personalities are starting to come out more. Their pack dynamics will change as this happens, and will continue to change as long as they live together. They may never be BFF snuggle buddies, but they will learn to live with each other as long as you make it clear that's what you expect them to do. Dogs live in the moment and neither of them will remember this exchange for future reference.

 

Here's what to do

> make sure both wear muzzles in the yard when playing as even a playful nip can quickly become an e-vet trip.

> don't throw the ball for both at the same time, let each have a special playtime

> keep an eye on them and step in sooner to nip snarks in the bud

> make sure they both know that you/DH can and will be the adult in charge

> set clear and consistent rules, follow a predictible schedule, make sure they get enough exercise (separatley)

 

Everything will be fine! Have another glass of wine!

[Guest lynne893]

"Dogs live in the moment and neither of them will remember this exchange for future reference."

 

That's what I've heard people say, and that's what I'm trying to keep in mind. I struggle with anxiety, and I could really beat myself up about this and let this fight always hover over me....

 

But, muzzles will go on when out playing in the yard. I read somewhere that someone puts moleskin on the inside rim of the muzzle to make it more comfortable. I will do that. DH will not be happy about muzzling them, but I'll share all of your responses with him.

 

Thank you for helping me put this tangle in perspective.

 

"Have a nice glass of wine!" -- that is just what the doctor ordered!!!!

[Wonder]

DH will not be happy about muzzling them, but I'll share all of your responses with him.

 

Why not? Just curious.

I always muzzle now and it's great peace of mind. My dogs don't mind them at all.

Plus the stupid squirrels keep coming in the yard and I don't want to have to pull one of those out of my hounds mouth

Edited October 22, 2010 by Wonder

[Guest lynne893]

DH will not be happy about muzzling them, but I'll share all of your responses with him.

 

Why not? Just curious.

I always muzzle now and it's great peace of mind. My dogs don't mind them at all.

Plus the stupid squirrels keep coming in the yard and I don't want to have to pull one of those out of my hounds mouth

 

I think he'll just be annoyed to have to take that extra step and also I think he won't believe it's necessary. He's a great guy, I don't mean to make him out to sound like a bone head or anything. You know how sometimes we worry warts see all good reason in the world for something and our spouses just don't see it the same way? But like I said, I'll share everyone's advice.

[Wonder]

DH will not be happy about muzzling them, but I'll share all of your responses with him.

 

Why not? Just curious.

I always muzzle now and it's great peace of mind. My dogs don't mind them at all.

Plus the stupid squirrels keep coming in the yard and I don't want to have to pull one of those out of my hounds mouth

 

I think he'll just be annoyed to have to take that extra step and also I think he won't believe it's necessary. He's a great guy, I don't mean to make him out to sound like a bone head or anything. You know how sometimes we worry warts see all good reason in the world for something and our spouses just don't see it the same way? But like I said, I'll share everyone's advice.

I was one of those that was annoyed to take the time. All it took was one bite and a vet bill for $1500 and now it's not such a big deal

[TheFullHouse]

"Dogs live in the moment and neither of them will remember this exchange for future reference."

 

That's what I've heard people say, and that's what I'm trying to keep in mind. I struggle with anxiety, and I could really beat myself up about this and let this fight always hover over me....

 

But, muzzles will go on when out playing in the yard. I read somewhere that someone puts moleskin on the inside rim of the muzzle to make it more comfortable. I will do that. DH will not be happy about muzzling them, but I'll share all of your responses with him.

 

Thank you for helping me put this tangle in perspective.

 

"Have a nice glass of wine!" -- that is just what the doctor ordered!!!!

 

 

Once they get things sorted out amongst the two of them, you won't have to worry any more. They had an argument, both of them learned something from it and will probably be a little cautious of each other for the next few days. You may hear a growl here or there but I usually correct that they a "hey, knock it off" comment. Mine have learned from every argument they have had. Don't be overly anxious. Think of it as two kids who had words, it's the first time and may be the last, but if not, you know to step in and correct them. Tell DH muzzles are safety equipment. He wouldn't want to watch football players play without their safety equipment, well muzzles are safety equipment for greyhounds. They are a lot cheaper than an e-vet bill and a badly injured greyhound.

[Batmom]

Here, Joseph plays fetch with me by himself, while Gidgie does fun things with her grammy. Then the muzzles go back on and they can play together if they want.

 

Over time my previous dogs all learned that one stays with me while the other fetches. Gidgie is the odd girl out -- she has no interest at all in fetch . She is learning to sit at my side for treats while Joseph fetches but so far only inside, where they're slower and more controllable.

[Guest PhillyPups]

Does your husband buckle up? I can put a muzzle on faster than I can buckle a seatbelt. Mine are muzzled when I go to work - safety first.

[Guest 4dogscrazy]

I solved the DH complaint by saying "it's fine if you don't want to muzzle them when I'm not here, I just hate that you'll be the one who has to deal with all the blood and mess, and screaming, while I drive as fast as I can from work to help" said with true sincerity. I say the same thing to DH. Works every single time.

 

Two of mine got into a major fight over food in the house. Thank goodness the lab was on the bottom, she has an extremely thick coat, and skin. If the fight would have been between two hounds, we would have been at the ER. This was all my fault, I had left a full bowl of food out unattended. I have been working with them over the last 8 months. All dogs can now be fed within a few feet of each other, always supervised of course. We had some other issues going on at that time, a picky eater who was guarding her food, etc. All those issues were resolved so I started working on getting them used to eating together at the same time. Success in that department here. I just wanted to let you know they may have words over food too!

 

I want to caution you that your two need to be muzzled while you are not home. Unless you are crating, anything can set them off while they are figuring out the dynamics. That is partially what happened with my girls, I added a boy. The boy changed everything in one day. A new member of the pack will cause upset, and both of yours are new.

 

After adding the boy, we had small injuries in the yard all the time. Little nips here and there, nothing serious but not severe. We went into def com 5 alert! Everyone muzzled, every single time they were in the yard. After a year, I will now let them out to play, while I am there, without muzzles. Never unsupervised. We have Jolly Balls and they love to play with them, so I take them out and let them run off some steam. I am always alert to snarkyness, and after two years I know who starts the trouble. I will tell them to knock it off, or any other dumb thing I can think of, in a sharp tone to let them know I mean NO FIGHTING!

 

Just a note, getting in between them is so so dangerous. I have warned everyone in my house that if they get into another fight in the house, take the pillows after them. Not sure what I'd do outside, the hose if it's handy, I guess. When mine fought I screamed some kind of crazy primal scream at them and they stopped. It's so frightening, I totally understand. All is not lost though, it's only ever happened once here, and I keep total control of their play now. After the dust settled here, I just started working on training them that no rough play is allowed. No feet on anyone else, and no nipping!

 

Good luck, many of us have been there with you.

Edited October 22, 2010 by 4dogscrazy

[Guest isntitgreyt]

I muzzle all mine when I leave them for the day or when they go outside. It's a safety precaution that I wouldn't take a chance on. Foxy had her neck ripped open by my dad's Jack Russell. That was a vet bill of $1500 right before I was going on vacation. I made my dad pay for it since it was his dog, not mine who did it but I always think about what if one of mine did to another. Their skin is so thin and can be punctured very easily. I would have the dog with a puncture wound on antibiotics. Dog bites can cause some major bacteria.

[grey14me]

There are probably quite a few threads on here title something like "Why I now use muzzles" where you can see the damage done...you may want to do a search and show them to your dh....

[Guest lynne893]

Thanks again everyone. I feel more anxious after reading all of these stories!

 

I'm also trying NOT to baby Greta, the one who has the slight injury. I'm paying happy attention to both of them.

 

Swiftie has a tendency to growl at Greta if Greta comes too near when she's resting or cuddling with us. She's protective of her space and her toys, etc., I guess. We always give a sharp "Ah Ah!" or "No!" when she snarls. It's always in the throat not with teeth, but after today, I'm feeling worried.

 

Thank you for all your good advice.

[KF_in_Georgia]

I have friends who wound up in the ER last week when their new dog went after their cat--and the older, established family dogs were "goaded" into going after the cat they'd never bothered before.

 

The dogs killed the cat, and the friends were bitten by dogs and the cat as they tried to separate the animals.

 

In your case, it would take just one too-slow critter in the yard while your girls are outside unmuzzled for the whole lot of you to wind up in various ERs.

 

 

My guys get high-value treats or toys only when I'm going to be right there. One dog will be on the dog bed at my feet, the other on the dog bed on the far side of the room. They don't get near each other until they're both through with their treats, even if that means the boy by me lies on his bed and whines while his slower sister finishes her treat. (I always put the faster-eating dog by me, since he's the one I'd have to restrain from bothering the other one.) For toys, they both have matching toys and they can play and squeak and have fun--separately. When I can't supervise any longer, the toys get picked up until the next play session. As the toys get worn down and the squeakers are silenced, the toys become less high-value and the dogs are more willing to share them.

 

"High-value" treats are any treats that aren't instantly consumed. If it's just dog biscuits, I feed one dog with one hand, the other with the other, and stand there until both dogs are finished. That's about 3 seconds at my house.

[Guest 4dogscrazy]

I know you are worried, but you have to remember this is still an adjustment period. I always tell people you won't really see your true hound for a couple months. Some of them just don't come out of their shells for a few weeks.

 

Buy some toys they can play with in the yard with a muzzle on. Jolly Balls are one, if they are really playful. Two of mine play with the balls, one has never looked at them. When they started fighting over one ball, I bought two. Now they know if they don't get the first one, I will be tossing the second. A long haired stuffy? They can pick up the stuffies with longer hair while muzzled.

 

Mine were fighting over beds at night too. I crated the two youngest because I had enough of it. It was starting to get serious and I was yelling knock-it-off several times a night. The crates are enormous, but we dealt with it. To give you hope: I only had to crate them for about six months. They all now sleep on dog beds in my room and I rarely (maybe once in the last three months) heard a growlie.

 

Growls are actually good. That's a warning without teeth. Try not to scold the dog when she growls, she may decide to just lay into her instead. Remove them from the sitution when someone is upset. Control all their interactions. If someone is feeling snarky in the house, you get your muzzle put on for a while. I have even given time outs in the crate for snarkyness. I just calmly get up (in the case of snuggle envy) and put them in the crate. Done, no scolding.

 

Honestly there is hope! You just have to take control now, like you would with a pack of bad kiddos. Watch for signs of anxiety, and take action. This will not go on forever if you take control. Mine all get along really well now. They share toys, food bowls (the switch), beds, etc. Just don't step on the brown one or you will get put on notice!

[racindog]

Throw the tennis balls for them but only do it one on one. It's a high value toy for both of them and they are not going to do well together but that doesn't mean you can't still play.

 

Outside in the yard they need to be muzzled to avoid the challenging behavior.

The gospel truth! You just gotta do play one on one. You are a high value treat too and if they're like mine they will probably scrape due to jealosy also if you try to play with just one while the otehr one is there.

 

I only play ball with Diamond alone now.

Otherwise, they play with their muzzles on. I have a toy with nubs on it and they can still get it with the muzzle on.

Excellent point. The "Biscuit Ball" that Kong makes that has the holes in it......Minny carries it around runs and plays with it with no problem with his muzzle on. So thats a ball they can get and play with even when muzzled.

[Guest zombrie]

Throw the tennis balls for them but only do it one on one. It's a high value toy for both of them and they are not going to do well together but that doesn't mean you can't still play.

 

Outside in the yard they need to be muzzled to avoid the challenging behavior.

The gospel truth! You just gotta do play one on one. You are a high value treat too and if they're like mine they will probably scrape due to jealosy also if you try to play with just one while the otehr one is there.

 

I only play ball with Diamond alone now.

Otherwise, they play with their muzzles on. I have a toy with nubs on it and they can still get it with the muzzle on.

Excellent point. The "Biscuit Ball" that Kong makes that has the holes in it......Minny carries it around runs and plays with it with no problem with his muzzle on. So thats a ball they can get and play with even when muzzled.

 

Ditto to this!!

Before working at the greyhound rescue, muzzles seemed like a scary thing. Now they are no big deal..as everyone else has said, it's like a seat belt. We ALWAYS muzzle during play, once that competitive instinct kicks in, it can turn nasty in the blink of an eye. These pups can most definitely live peacefully together, it is unfortunately quite common for this to happen during play because they get so in the zone.

[Guest KennelMom]

No serious injuries. Greta (the beta dog) has a 2" tuft of fur missing from her neck (you only see the skin) and a "puncture" wound that really didn't fully break through the skin. I can tell it will bruise and be an "owie" for several days.

 

Tiffs happen. They can happen anywhere, any time. In the yard, in the house, with toys, without toys. Unless your dogs live in muzzles, you may occasionally have an injury from play or disagreements. I'm not sure I would call what happened a "fight." When there's a fight between greyhounds, you know it. Usually vets and stitches are involved.

 

Don't let them get worked in to a frenzy. A dog should always be in control of themselves and sometimes the human has to employ a little caution in making sure the dog(s) don't get too worked up.

Edited October 22, 2010 by KennelMom

[jetcitywoman]

In one of the other muzzle threads, somebody pointed out that her other breeds can play-bite each other quite roughly and never get injured. Other breeds have thick fur or thick skin or lots of fat under the skin that protects them. Greys have none of that. So even play-biting can cause injuries.

 

It's happened to me too, once a few months ago and again this week. The hardest part for me the first time was keeping my own emotions under control. Because that time it was 200% purely my fault. I'd given them bones in the back yard, saw them to go separate spots and went back inside the house. Ignoring my interior "hey stupid" bells going off in my head. Sure enough... bad scene. And I felt soooooooooo guilty that my baby got hurt! But since dogs read us so much, if you want the dog to get over it quickly, it really helps if you can brush off the guilt and worry and just take care of business.

[Guest iconsmum]

Re the "primal scream" to control the dog:

 

 

- if you scream at dogs that are fighting you will throw up the prey drive and adrenalin flow that's happening in front of you - you may even be asking for a bite aimed at you if the panicky sound makes the dog redirect... same for yelling frantically at a dog that has a cat or a squirrel in its mouth- yelling sounds like the panic of prey - that's an exciting piece of encouragement if you're a dog...you have to learn not to do what humans do naturally - instead, keep calm and don't yell - get a bite stick, keep it outside and learn how to use it, a blanket, a hose, a pail and banger to make metallic noise, stuff that will surprise them...then practise - rehearse in your mind how this is going to go if it happens - believe it or not, studies say that if you rehearse it, you'll have a much better chance of doing it in real life if you need to.

Edited October 22, 2010 by iconsmum