How To Teach "stay" Or "wait"

[jetcitywoman]

Has anyone suggested replacing the collar with a squawker? Our adoption group now gives them free in the gift bag when you adopt a dog. I used mine to train Capri to come, and recharge it every now and then. When she hears the squawker, she runs toward me so fast she almost smashes me flat!

[Guest aeroangie]

Thanks Chad for that information. I don't intend on using the collar for "come" except for the training exercises we do here at home as it is mostly for when we take him out on the islands by boat. It is waterproof. It is very true that when he has it on, he is more responsive. Yes, I am trying to take a shortcut....no doubt. When cool weather comes, we will be home more often, and we will then spend more time at home and less time on the water.

 

Never heard of a squawker, but again, I am sure my timid little Chinese Crested (who was also a rescue BTW) wouldn't like it...or is it less startling than the cans??? But again, a startling noise seems no different to me than a vibration (as far as one being positive or negative.) I have to add here that the buzz vibration is not at all unpleasant. He is, however, a very tough hound....not nearly as sensitive as my first two. It gets his attention, and when he feels that buzz, he knows "I am getting a treat!." I think he is really doing quite well.

 

This dog isn't even afraid of a vacuum and has never been inside a house supposedly!!!

 

What sold me on it was to "ability to call your dog back from great distances" by the way!

 

http://www.unleashedtechnology.com/product_education/

Edited September 15, 2010 by aeroangie

[kudzu]

About the collar, I use the vibrations to get his attention. ...

 

It works b/c you get the dog to associate treats and love and praise with the vibrations.

 

So if I am understanding you correctly you are using a level of vibration that your dog does not find aversive, you are pairing that vibration with something he finds rewarding and then using the vibration as a signal, one he will associate with something good. And it sounds like you are not using the shock settings or a vibration level high enough to be aversive. Is that correct? If so, then I do not have a big problem with.

 

However, I will add that if you are following their instructions you may in fact be teaching through an aversive. If it was would it inhumane? I haven't felt it nor seen your dog's reaction to it so I cannot say. Please observe your dogs reaction carefully. Watch the body language to be sure the vibrations are not at too high a level. Also, if you want to use this collar to train in a reward based method, which I would like to encourage you to do, please do not follow their instructions. It is all based on negative reinforcement not positive reinforcement.

 

From reading the info on the product education page in the link provided they are very misleading. There are quite a few dogs who would find even mild "electronic pressure" via vibrations quite aversive. The entire thing relies on negative reinforcement to get compliance. In Phase 3 they are actually telling people to make sure it is aversive enough to get compliance. "Depending on the dog’s performance, you may need to raise or lower the vibration stimulation level." So they are saying if a low, non-aversive level of stimulation is not effective you need to increase the stimulation level to a point where the dog really wants the pressure to be removed. In otherwords, it has become aversive and the dog wants it to go away. And to be honest, I really cannot think of any way to set up negative reinforcement that is not aversive. The whole point of continuing the pressure until the dog complies is that the dog learns that when he complies it makes the pressure go away.

 

However, if you are using this as you indicate by pairing the vibration with treats and rewards rather than using it as an aversive then you are setting it up so you could use the collar in place of a clicker or marker word. Is that what you are trying to do? In that case, rather than applying the stimulation to get the dog to respond you would use it as a signal the dog has done the correct thing. If at any point the dog stops responding or the response is unreliable you need to back up a step or two until you are at a level where the dog is responding correctly and then train up from there.

 

Vibrations collars are not necessarily aversive and at a lower settings very rarely inhumane. Pressures, rewards and aversives come in many forms. We should bear in mind that it is the dog who decides what is a reward and what is aversive. The first dog I took to clicker class was afraid of the clicker sound. My Greyhound does not necessarily consider petting a reward and she had to learn that praise was good. I personally would find some vibrations aversive and even a mild static shock very, very aversive. We are all different. Sometimes what was once aversive becomes a rewarding in itself when paired with a reward.

 

If you are following the instructions provided by the collar company then you really do run the risk of it being less reliable and losing it's effectiveness. And their comments on it being non-aversive are really a bunch of hog wash. However, it can be used in a positive manner if you want to.

 

Best of luck and have fun.

[Guest Wasserbuffel]

What Kudzu said.

 

Never heard of a squawker, but again, I am sure my timid little Chinese Crested (who was also a rescue BTW) wouldn't like it...or is it less startling than the cans??? But again, a startling noise seems no different to me than a vibration (as far as one being positive or negative.)

 

A squawker is an animal call. It's what hunters use to call squirrels and such when hunting. The dogs key into it and most are drawn instinctually to investigate the sound. Unlike rattling cans the squawker is a positive sound, not used to startle to dog. Jayne goes crazy when she hears one, she loves it.

[Guest aeroangie]

"So if I am understanding you correctly you are using a level of vibration that your dog does not find aversive, you are pairing that vibration with something he finds rewarding and then using the vibration as a signal, one he will associate with something good. And it sounds like you are not using the shock settings or a vibration level high enough to be aversive. Is that correct?

 

YES!!!! This is what I am doing exactly! It's mostly about being able to call him from distances!

 

Jayne - link me to a aquawker please! THANKS ALL!

[Guest Wasserbuffel]

http://reviews.bassp...426/reviews.htm

 

Easy to use. Just hold in your hand and shake.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Jayne

[kudzu]

"So if I am understanding you correctly you are using a level of vibration that your dog does not find aversive, you are pairing that vibration with something he finds rewarding and then using the vibration as a signal, one he will associate with something good. And it sounds like you are not using the shock settings or a vibration level high enough to be aversive. Is that correct?

 

YES!!!! This is what I am doing exactly! It's mostly about being able to call him from distances!

Great. Then calling him from a distance, like when he is unable or unlikely to hear you is a very logical reason to use this collar. Is there a way to disable the shock portion to eliminate any possible mishaps? If you can ensure that the collar never shocks or vibrates at a level high enough to be aversive and are using it in a positive reinforcement based approach rather than the manufacturers recommended negative reinforcement instructions then I think you actually have a very good tool. Though of course, just like a clicker and treats/toys which are used to teach a behavior but later phased out, you will want to make sure he learns to do everything without the collar. And that, of course, is where the negative reinforcement approach breaks down & positive reinforcement starts to shine.

 

All the best with the training. A trained dog is so much safer & better able to join us, as you already know. Oh, in addition to squawker training it may be good to add whistle training. That's on my short list of things to work on as a just in case.

[silverfish]

As you all know, a Grey will not listen when they are chasing, or when they have gotten out of earshot. I really can't understand why people are so closed minded about using a newer piece of technology???

 

I'd love to hear from anyone that has trained a Grey that was this young and hasn't raced. It is a different experience than I had with my other two dogs. Otis will be a year old in about 6 weeks.

 

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated though. I have a few challenges so will be here a while!

 

We took our first greyhound from a shelter. He'd never raced (wasn't tattooed) and he was under two years old. We trained the standard way, ignoring or deflecting bad behaviour (or if required, doing short time outs to a place where he could still see us but not join in) and a lot of positive rewards. He became the absolute best dog! I could let him off lead anywhere that was generally safe for dogs. Dog parks, beaches, country parks, woodland. He never got himself into trouble. He'd often go out of sight, but would always come back, never bothered any other breed of dog (used to play chase with a KC spaniel and with a Norfolk Terrier) and was afraid of cats.

 

I would strongly second previous suggestions that you be very careful not to accidentally use aversion when you're training him with the collar, since what you need for that 'absolutely best' dog is huge amounts of trust and respect between you. If you can honestly use the vibrations as a marker for good behaviour, then it should work well, but I would also look into disabling the shock levels. What if someone else nearby has the same collar on their dog set to shock - would their remote trigger a shock to your dog too?

 

We should bear in mind that it is the dog who decides what is a reward and what is aversive. The first dog I took to clicker class was afraid of the clicker sound. My Greyhound does not necessarily consider petting a reward and she had to learn that praise was good.

 

Sid was scared of the click at first. In order to use it to train him, I had to teach him that it was good. I did this by setting it on the minimum loundness, and wrapping it in a towel, then holding it behind my back and standing a few feet away and tossing the treat at him. Trust me, he loves the sound of that clicker now! I've had people pick it up and if they say 'what's this?' and click it before I could stop them, he'll come running, expecting a treat - which I then have to find for him.

 

Not sure an aversive reminder would ever become pleasant. Oh, you could learn to accept it in exchange for something high value, but it would still be painful or uncomfortable. Think about it: if someone said 'let me stamp on your foot and I'll give you this really great cake' you might do it for the reward, but would you enjoy being stamped on? And to put yourself a little bit in the dog's place here, would you respect them for it?

 

There might come a time when you decide being stamped on simply isn't worth putting up with for the cake, and stop cooperating. Or there might come a time when after accepting this for so long, you get so used to the pain that you hardly notice it any more. And when it comes to dog training, this is dangerous ground because you then have to deliver a little bit more pain/discomfort, and then a little bit more after another period of time. I'm certainly not suggesting this will happen with the OP and the vibration collar, just saying it's something to be aware of.

 

Edited to add: I'm in England, so letting our dogs off lead is different here. Even so, I'm not suggesting that ALL greyhounds can be trained to be like my beautiful James. I've had four since, and none have been quite so wonderful, probably because they were ex-racers, and I had them when they were older. You have to be guided by your own dog and be realistic.

Edited September 16, 2010 by silverfish

[Guest jerrybird]

Just wondering how Otis is faring these days. Are you still using the e-collar?

[Guest june]

I love that you are spending the time to train him to wait. All my girls learn that command first and I use it every time I go through a door, gate or if they are in a crate for some reason before they can come out of the crate. I also use it when we go for walks at every corner. They have to stop and stand still until I release them.

 

Teaching them to "stay" is harder. My girls want to be near me. I just took one of my girls to a local obedience show and she broke the stay in both classes. She was doing it well at home but I guess we didn't practice in enough different places. Dogs have a hard time generalizing what they learn. We'll keep working on it.

 

Again, I'm so glad you are trying to keep your pup safe. I'm glad the collar you are using is not a shock collar.

june

[GeorgeofNE]

I hope your dog is wearing a life jacket on your boat. Most Greyhounds are not good swimmers, and accidents do happen.

[krissy]

I didn't read through all the replies, so excuse me if I repeat a technique someone else has already been through.

 

Wait was the first thing Summit learned. I didn't even use food rewards for this one. Whenever we come in or out the front door he has to wait and let me go first. He also had to wait for his meals.

 

To start I would get ready to go for a walk, and had his leash fairly short, but relaxed. I opened the door and when he tried to walk out, I blocked him gently with my body. When he was back where he was supposed to be I stepped aside and if he tried to go out on his own I again gently blocked him. I also added a "non-reward marker" as I'll call it, which was just a gentle "Ah ah" or something similar. If he stayed where he was for a couple of seconds with the door wide open then I praised him and said "okay" (release word) and let him walk out the door. I didn't use food rewards because in this situation going out for a walk was the reward. After he started to get it, I added the command.

 

Same with dinner. This is a similar technique to what people described with the treats in hand. I told him to wait and put his bowl down. If he went for it I blocked him. If he waited for a few seconds I released him to eat with "okay". In both situations you make the amount of time you require for the wait longer and longer.

 

Summit is not good at sit stays... we haven't worked on them much because outside of the obedience ring I see no need to make him do a sit stay if he's more comfortable to do a down or stand stay. That said, he will hold his sit stay for quite a while if I ask him to sit stay before his dinner. And he has no aversions to short sits.

 

A vibration collar may not be painful, but I don't think it's really necessary. I taught Summit to "watch me" to get his attention, and once I have his attention there's no reason for him to not recall or do whatever else I ask. So now he's got a very reliable recall. It didn't happen in 15 minutes, but I'm weary of things that give "quick fixes". I prefer the old fashioned way.

[cleptogrey]

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/2635691/sn/1783676834/name/n_a

 

we started with 2 second sit/stays and worked our way up. it takes time a patience

[HoundHeavenAZ]

I teach all of my dogs and all fosters that come to visit to WAIT with a VOG and a hand gesture. Usually it only takes once with the VOG and then I use the hand gesture and tell them to wait. Once they get the hang of it I only use a hand signal. The hand signal is important to get right the first time - make an exagerated motion with your hand as if you were going to make contact with their nose ( of course you won't!) and it makes them blink, from then on the gesture can be less dramatic.

 

Whenever I walk outside and the ears perk up I show them the hand and they go right back to sleep They know I will be returning soon and that they need not exert any effort to find me this time

 

The second thing I teach them is DOWN. If you stand around long enough they always lay down so just give them the command and point to the floor and soon they will connect the dots.

 

Good luck to you and Otis