Chewing On Grate Until Bloody!

[Guest Lgyure85]

We got Maddie a few months ago, but just decided to start crating her yesterday (she has gotten bad about getting into everything and anything she can). She was fine the first time she was in it and we were gone (for about 3 hours) but when my husband went out for about an hour and I was at work, she chewed her crate so badly that there was blood on the carpet, and the bridge of her nose is all swollen. We have to crate her, as she was tearing everything up, but I can't bring myself to do it if she's going to do that to herself. We have another dog that has always been crated, and we put his crate in front of hers so they could see each other, and had the radio on. Any ideas on what we can do to make her feel better about her crate? We are thinking maybe bitter apple spray on it? Any ideas are welcome!

 

Edit: Chewing on CRATE, not Grate, sorry about that!

Edited May 22, 2010 by Lgyure85

[Batmom]

If she's going to fuss like that, best to not crate her -- she can hurt herself very badly. Might try a basket muzzle (plastic turnout muzzle) and an ex-pen instead.

 

Note that if you muzzle one dog, you can't have other unmuzzled dogs loose in the same area. Muzzle one, muzzle all.

[Guest littlesyd85]

She definitely has separation anxiety that is for sure. I am surprised that the crate wasn't utilized from day one to be honest... She may just be a bit "shell shocked" after not being locked up for so long. But that aside, is the crate in the living space of the house where she can access it all the time even when you are home? If she has the ability to go in and out of it when you are home it makes it a little less of a shock to be put in there. Also a good trick that I learned from the OSU Health & Wellness Seminar is to fill a Kong with peanut butter or pumpkin and then freeze it. When you leave give her that and it will take a good amount of time to eat it all. Keeping her busy with something like that should keep her from attacking the crate. Good luck and keep us posted on how everything works out.

[TheFullHouse]

I agree with Batmom. Muzzle her. If she's been uncrated this long, she's going to protest going back in it. She won't be able to get into things with a muzzle one. She should have one from when she was adopted. All of mine came with muzzles.

[Guest littlesyd85]

If she's going to fuss like that, best to not crate her -- she can hurt herself very badly. Might try a basket muzzle (plastic turnout muzzle) and an ex-pen instead.

 

Note that if you muzzle one dog, you can't have other unmuzzled dogs loose in the same area. Muzzle one, muzzle all.

 

I agree with Batmom! If you can't get her to stop hurting herself the muzzle can be useful. We have had a few families that have had a lot of success with that.

[Guest Lgyure85]

If she's going to fuss like that, best to not crate her -- she can hurt herself very badly. Might try a basket muzzle (plastic turnout muzzle) and an ex-pen instead.

 

Note that if you muzzle one dog, you can't have other unmuzzled dogs loose in the same area. Muzzle one, muzzle all.

 

 

I think we're going to try muzzling her in her crate. There are two problems with the ex pen, 1. We have a relatively small apartment, and no place to put one, 2. This should explain it!- http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/254689-where-my-boyfriends-mom-found-maddie/page__p__4541648__hl__boyfriend__fromsearch__1entry4541648

 

Thank you so much for the muzzle idea, though. It won't be pleasant for her, but anything to keep her from hurting herself!

[Guest littlesyd85]

If she's going to fuss like that, best to not crate her -- she can hurt herself very badly. Might try a basket muzzle (plastic turnout muzzle) and an ex-pen instead.

 

Note that if you muzzle one dog, you can't have other unmuzzled dogs loose in the same area. Muzzle one, muzzle all.

 

 

I think we're going to try muzzling her in her crate. There are two problems with the ex pen, 1. We have a relatively small apartment, and no place to put one, 2. This should explain it!- http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/254689-where-my-boyfriends-mom-found-maddie/page__p__4541648__hl__boyfriend__fromsearch__1entry4541648

 

Thank you so much for the muzzle idea, though. It won't be pleasant for her, but anything to keep her from hurting herself!

 

I don't know that the muzzle AND the crate would be necessary. I would worry that she would freak out and start digging and bending the bars. She could get herself stuck and that would be BAD! Just throwing it out there...

[Guest Lgyure85]

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I agree with Batmom. Muzzle her. If she's been uncrated this long, she's going to protest going back in it. She won't be able to get into things with a muzzle one. She should have one from when she was adopted. All of mine came with muzzles.

 

I do have her muzzle from when we got her! We're going to muzzle and crate, since she would still be able to get into things (I can't begin to explain how adamant she is!). Here is a link explaining why we can't just put her in an exercise pen- http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/254689-where-my-boyfriends-mom-found-maddie/page__p__4541648__hl__boyfriend__fromsearch__1entry4541648

 

Thanks!

 

If she's going to fuss like that, best to not crate her -- she can hurt herself very badly. Might try a basket muzzle (plastic turnout muzzle) and an ex-pen instead.

 

Note that if you muzzle one dog, you can't have other unmuzzled dogs loose in the same area. Muzzle one, muzzle all.

 

 

I think we're going to try muzzling her in her crate. There are two problems with the ex pen, 1. We have a relatively small apartment, and no place to put one, 2. This should explain it!- http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/254689-where-my-boyfriends-mom-found-maddie/page__p__4541648__hl__boyfriend__fromsearch__1entry4541648

 

Thank you so much for the muzzle idea, though. It won't be pleasant for her, but anything to keep her from hurting herself!

 

I don't know that the muzzle AND the crate would be necessary. I would worry that she would freak out and start digging and bending the bars. She could get herself stuck and that would be BAD! Just throwing it out there...

 

 

We're going to give the muzzle alone a trial run, but also work with her on the whole crate situation. She sleeps in there without a problem, and the bars seem REALLY sturdy. Hopefully she'll get used to it. I wish we would have just done it from the beginning, but she didn't need it until recently. Thank you so much for your help!

[cleptogrey]

i had to laugh when i went to your link, my late welsh terrier was a table dog.

 

i think she still wants to sleep on the top bunk as the females do at the kennels. felix, my current male, LOVES his crate chews on it, it's just a bad habbit.when he was boarded once he cut the edge of his nose where it meets the fur, triple antibiotic ointment worked well. maybe some bitter apple on the crate, but i would not muzzle and crate her.i also heard that a paste of alum(you can buy it in the spice dept. at the supermaket) is a good chewing deterent. if she has a muzzle on then she can't collect things. if the chairs are up on the table, as the do in school, then she wouldn't have room to nest up there.

 

does she have a comfy bed and maybe a blanket or two to nest in? if the blankets, towels,or laundry that smell like you thats even better. also these greys seem to be nesters in the beginning, it helps them settle into their home. some will also rearrange soft objects- pillows, towels, etc. and hoard them. it's all a matter of them making themself at home.

 

cleptogrey....and i mean it. emily used to hoard my best shoes and pocketbooks and bras!!!

Edited May 22, 2010 by cleptogrey

[Guest 4dogscrazy]

If she's going to fuss like that, best to not crate her -- she can hurt herself very badly. Might try a basket muzzle (plastic turnout muzzle) and an ex-pen instead.

 

Note that if you muzzle one dog, you can't have other unmuzzled dogs loose in the same area. Muzzle one, muzzle all.

 

I agree with Batmom! If you can't get her to stop hurting herself the muzzle can be useful. We have had a few families that have had a lot of success with that.

 

My separation anxiety dog can not be crated. I muzzle her when I leave and use baby gates to keep her OUT of the rooms I don't want her in. Notice I don't gate her IN a room, she hates that too!

 

ETA: she's looking for a safe spot, that's why she's nesting on the table. You definately have a separation anxiety dog on your hands here. There is tons of information on here about ways to help.

Edited May 22, 2010 by 4dogscrazy

[ahicks51]

Be careful about trying to crate a dog that protests. Aside from the obvious injuries, they can crack teeth very easily.

[Guest GentleHugs]

I have a girl (Ashley) that had SA and could not be crated in her former home. She was an only dog in her former home. She ate a vari kennel (left the metal hardware but ate the rest) and broke her canines off in a wire crate. When left to roam freely in her former home, she tore a bathroom door off its hinges, chewed it and then ripped the door molding off and chewed it. That was my Ashley who is now 12 1/2 and could care less if/when I leave or not. However, her SA subsided when she came to live with me and I already had 2 other GH's.

 

Anyway - from your dog's point of view - this is how I take it: you gave her freedom, she started acting out. You are taking freedom away because she started tearing up stuff. She was tearing up stuff because you weren't there and she panicked. Now she's acting out about getting her freedom taken away plus the fact you leave and she is frustrated to beat the band. Those are classic signs of SA.

 

So - what do you do about it? Well, I would not muzzle her AND crate her. I'd muzzle her but I'd also work on doing some re-conditioning training with her to show her the crate can be her friend. You will also need to figure out what triggers and heightens her anxiety level as well. Does she start to get a little anxious when you are putting on your shoes, grabbing your keys, coat, purse, hat, etc? When you find out what starts to make her anxiety level heighten - that's the point of where you start working with her.

 

Let's say, for instance, you go to put on your shoes and she starts pacing or panting - put your shoes on, wait a minute or two, then take off your shoes. Go on about your business for a few minutes and repeat that exercise all over again until you see that she is no longer getting upset by the fact you are putting on your shoes. You can also reward her with a small treat every time she does not respond in an anxious manner when you are putting on your shoes. Then once you achieve a calm dog - move on to the next item that triggers her anxiety and so on. Training like this takes consistency, a lot of time and things won't be achieved overnight. It will take a few weeks if not more depending on the severity of her SA.

 

Now, I have another little girl (LuLu) who has SA to the max but it doesn't matter to her if she has a whole pack of dogs in the house with her or not. She's hyperattached to me so when I leave - all heck breaks loose with her. Since I started working with her well over a month ago, she is much better but we still have a long way to go on training and achieving a calm girl when I leave.

 

Actually, there are two types of SA - one is where the dog is an only dog and can be comforted by the presence of another dog or two in the house with them. The second type is the harder one to work on - it's where the dog doesn't care how many other dogs are in the house - they are hyperattached to their human.

 

Also - do you leave a TV or radio on while you are gone? That might help. I'd also suggest storing things away and not leaving them out for her to get ahold of as well.

 

Hope this helps and good luck, too.

[greyhead]

One of our dogs needed four teeth extracted at his first dental because of damage. The vet said the only way those particular teeth get damaged is because of crate chewing. He apparently had been ready to leave the kennel some time before he was allowed to do so.

[joejoesmom]

She definitely has separation anxiety that is for sure. I am surprised that the crate wasn't utilized from day one to be honest... She may just be a bit "shell shocked" after not being locked up for so long. But that aside, is the crate in the living space of the house where she can access it all the time even when you are home? If she has the ability to go in and out of it when you are home it makes it a little less of a shock to be put in there. Also a good trick that I learned from the OSU Health & Wellness Seminar is to fill a Kong with peanut butter or pumpkin and then freeze it. When you leave give her that and it will take a good amount of time to eat it all. Keeping her busy with something like that should keep her from attacking the crate. Good luck and keep us posted on how everything works out.

If you decide to use the stuffed kong: Be sure to keep the small hole (the little hole on the opposite side of the opening) clear. In other words, don't pack the kong full -- make sure that you can see through the kong. The little hole is there to prevent a vacuum from forming as the dog licks out the treat. It is very rare, but a dog's tongue can get caught in the kong (from the vacuum). If not taken care of quickly the dog can lose part of its tongue.

 

I would try the muzzle with the dog outside of a crate. You can babygate areas that you want to keep dog free. I personally like the extra tall gate (with available extensions) from KidCo.

[Guest Lgyure85]

I have a girl (Ashley) that had SA and could not be crated in her former home. She was an only dog in her former home. She ate a vari kennel (left the metal hardware but ate the rest) and broke her canines off in a wire crate. When left to roam freely in her former home, she tore a bathroom door off its hinges, chewed it and then ripped the door molding off and chewed it. That was my Ashley who is now 12 1/2 and could care less if/when I leave or not. However, her SA subsided when she came to live with me and I already had 2 other GH's.

 

Anyway - from your dog's point of view - this is how I take it: you gave her freedom, she started acting out. You are taking freedom away because she started tearing up stuff. She was tearing up stuff because you weren't there and she panicked. Now she's acting out about getting her freedom taken away plus the fact you leave and she is frustrated to beat the band. Those are classic signs of SA.

 

So - what do you do about it? Well, I would not muzzle her AND crate her. I'd muzzle her but I'd also work on doing some re-conditioning training with her to show her the crate can be her friend. You will also need to figure out what triggers and heightens her anxiety level as well. Does she start to get a little anxious when you are putting on your shoes, grabbing your keys, coat, purse, hat, etc? When you find out what starts to make her anxiety level heighten - that's the point of where you start working with her.

 

Let's say, for instance, you go to put on your shoes and she starts pacing or panting - put your shoes on, wait a minute or two, then take off your shoes. Go on about your business for a few minutes and repeat that exercise all over again until you see that she is no longer getting upset by the fact you are putting on your shoes. You can also reward her with a small treat every time she does not respond in an anxious manner when you are putting on your shoes. Then once you achieve a calm dog - move on to the next item that triggers her anxiety and so on. Training like this takes consistency, a lot of time and things won't be achieved overnight. It will take a few weeks if not more depending on the severity of her SA.

 

Now, I have another little girl (LuLu) who has SA to the max but it doesn't matter to her if she has a whole pack of dogs in the house with her or not. She's hyperattached to me so when I leave - all heck breaks loose with her. Since I started working with her well over a month ago, she is much better but we still have a long way to go on training and achieving a calm girl when I leave.

 

Actually, there are two types of SA - one is where the dog is an only dog and can be comforted by the presence of another dog or two in the house with them. The second type is the harder one to work on - it's where the dog doesn't care how many other dogs are in the house - they are hyperattached to their human.

 

Also - do you leave a TV or radio on while you are gone? That might help. I'd also suggest storing things away and not leaving them out for her to get ahold of as well.

 

Hope this helps and good luck, too.

 

Thank you so much for your suggestions! We are going to try the muzzle without the crate tomorrow. We have been leaving the radio or TV on, and every time we think we've put everything up/away, she finds something new to eat (eg. we hid the garbage, so she got to a plant that was pushed against the wall on the kitchen counter). We live in a relatively small apartment that only has three rooms (kitchen/living area, bedroom, and bathroom) so we can lock her out of the bedroom and the bathroom, but the kitchen and living area are where she gets into the most stuff.

 

I 100% agree with the separation anxiety. She starts talking to me as soon as I start showering, since I usually leave shortly thereafter. We do have another dog (Boston Terrier) and she seems to enjoy his company, just not enough. She is VERY attached to myself and somewhat to my boyfriend also. Also, she does get more than enough exercise (1-2 hours running and playing at the dog park 3-4 times a week, plus 4-5 15-20 minute walks a day), so it isn't that.

 

Wish me luck with just the muzzle tomorrow! We need it! We have some tramadol for her, so I'll give them to her before I put the muzzle on, since her nose is all ouchy. I really hope this works. I can deal with cleaning up after her, but Eli can't.

 

We got Maddie a few months ago, but just decided to start crating her yesterday (she has gotten bad about getting into everything and anything she can). She was fine the first time she was in it and we were gone (for about 3 hours) but when my husband went out for about an hour and I was at work, she chewed her crate so badly that there was blood on the carpet, and the bridge of her nose is all swollen. We have to crate her, as she was tearing everything up, but I can't bring myself to do it if she's going to do that to herself. We have another dog that has always been crated, and we put his crate in front of hers so they could see each other, and had the radio on. Any ideas on what we can do to make her feel better about her crate? We are thinking maybe bitter apple spray on it? Any ideas are welcome!

 

Edit: Chewing on CRATE, not Grate, sorry about that!

 

Tomorrow we're trying just the muzzle (with a bit of tramadol so her nose doesn't hurt, since it was all ouchy from today). Wish us luck!

[Guest SusanP]

I'm wondering it talking with your vet about anxiety meds to help while you work with her on SA might not be a good first step.

[Guest Lgyure85]

I tried the crate again today. I gave her a Kong with peanut butter, and let her get in on her own. I came back from work 6 hours later, and she was fine! Had a bit of trouble getting out of her roach though

[Guest Lgyure85]

Haha, and then she escaped from her crate! What the heck is wrong with my dog!

[Batmom]

Haha, and then she escaped from her crate! What the heck is wrong with my dog!

 

Please do not crate her anymore. Dogs die trying to escape crates.

 

The basket muzzle and baby gates (to keep her out of areas where you don't want her) are your friends.

 

Also note that if you have more than one dog loose, you must muzzle all or none.

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. FWIW, I'm not a crate hater. I use them regularly. But not for dogs who try to escape.

[cleptogrey]

a freind of mine has a female who escapes from her crate. she was at my house, with my dog crated next to her, bounced up and down so much she unlatched the top and then squeezed out.

 

when you use gates, remember your pup can jump. so elevate or double up on the gate, but those are not fool proof.my welsh terrier used to knock the tension gate down he was so persisitant.

 

sounds like you will need to do some major dog proofing in the house. all important papers need to be put away, they love to eat paper..., tidy up wires from the computer, tv, etc. all cleaning goods locked up in a dog proof place- the top of the pantry or get a baby latch for under the sink. nothing on the counters and closet doors closed. then she will have less opportunities to get into trouble.

 

i also leave my dogs with 4 stuffed kongs each, marrow bones, a pile of small dog biskets as well. premire makes a series of dog toys that hold food which might keep her interest until she takes a nap.

 

exercise will be your best friend, try to to get your dog really tired before you leave.

yikes, getting up earlier!!!!

[Guest 4dogscrazy]

Okay, here's the thing about SA. Sometimes they are fine in the crate. I used to crate Tempe when I first got her, for at least a year and a half. In the end she was having panic attacks when I would put her in the crate. SA is a cycle ususally, some weeks/days good, some bad, some really bad. Although during that year and a half she had some minor incidences in the crate, it was nothing compared to the last week we crated her. I thought she had a seizure! I could probably put her back in the crate for a week now and she'd be fine. Next week she may hurt herself. Don't be fooled now! Your dog hates to be crated. Sorry to be so blunt. But I have experience in this area. I do crate Piper and Jesse. The difference is astronomical. They go in, lay down, roach, sleep in them at night in my room, use them with the door open, etc. I am not a crate hater either. I use them daily. Escaping is a sure sign she absolutely hates that crate. If you could video her and see the escape, you would be sick to your stomach, and wonder how she didn't hurt herself.

 

I'm not sure if you have more than one dog, but if you leave her out with a muzzle, you must muzzle both. Muzzling elimnates the ability to give them a kong, or other treat. But I think in your case you must muzzle her. Tempe would not eat when she became so upset at my leaving, I tried to treat and leave and she ignored it. So I could have given her 10 kongs, and she would not have cared. Tempe's SA is centered on me, like in the explanation above, so the other dogs give her no comfort.

 

I will advise again checking with your vet for anti-anxiety drugs. The clomipramine that Tempe is on is really cheap, like 30.00 for a 100. It has no side effects that I have seen, and has not changed her personality at all. Except when we leave.

 

I have read advice given on SA dogs that will bring pain to your heart, but I know it makes a difference. Try to not pay so much attention to the dog. If you are always coddling and mooning over her, it will make it worse. This is painful for me, as Tempe is my heart dog. And if it were up to me I would not spend one second of any day without her. But, I can tell you for sure, that Mondays around here is her worst day of the week. After a weekend of fun, naps, walks, cuddling, she misses me even more when I go. Make sense? It does, but somehow I've found a balance. And I know you can too!

 

You never said how she did with just the muzzle, or did you not try that?

 

Good luck, and I hope this helps.

 

Tina

 

ETA: for the nose injury, you can go to any drugstore and buy moleskin to stick on the inside of the muzzle. It's in the foot department, comes in a square shape that you can cut to fit. Get a couple, you'll need to change the pad since her nose is bloody. This was the same problem in our house when we first started leaving her out, she had and small cut on her nose at the time.

Edited May 23, 2010 by 4dogscrazy

[Guest LindsaySF]

Haha, and then she escaped from her crate! What the heck is wrong with my dog!

Please do not crate her anymore. Dogs die trying to escape crates.

Agreed. She could kill herself next time.

 

I have a series of crates and ex-pens here, I use them regularly. My house looks more like a kennel than anything. But I won't crate a dog that has severe crate anxiety. Not only does it make the dog worse mentally, but they can die trying to get out of a crate. Sophie busted through a crate in a previous foster home (the crate was so badly damaged it had to be thrown away). She can not be crated anymore. She does well in a large ex-pen.

 

 

I think we're going to try muzzling her in her crate. There are two problems with the ex pen, 1. We have a relatively small apartment, and no place to put one, 2. This should explain it!- http://forum.greytal...1entry4541648

If you have room for a crate you might have room for an ex-pen. An ex-pen usually takes up the space of two large crates, though you can make it smaller. What size is the crate you have now?

 

Also, some dogs will jump onto things (couches, tables, into the back of a car, etc) but they will still respect a babygate or ex-pen. The difference is that when they jump onto something they have a surface on which to land. If they are behind a gate or ex-pen there is no landing surface, so they won't try to jump it. I would try a tall ex-pen, I bet she won't even try to jump it. You can also try double-stacking two baby gates to keep her gated in a dog-proof room.

 

Good luck.

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

[Guest Lgyure85]

We did try the muzzle. I had it on the same size as they used for her at the track, and she almost had it off before I left. I also tried the baby gates in the bedroom, with our Boston Terrier both in his crate, and out of his crate (both times in the room with her) and she peed and pooed everywhere both times, in addition to tearing up the blinds and knocking everything over/off. I can't put her anywhere else, since there is so much more for her to tear up in the other rooms.

 

I did speak with our behaviorist, and I will be getting a ComfortZone collar for her today, and talking with the vet about some actual medication. Beth (the behaviorist) will be coming over to assess Maddie soon, and give us some suggestions. Until then, either one of us will be home with her, or we will take her with. If we absolutely have to leave without her, we will be taking her to our friend's house (our doggiesitter).

 

I didn't realize how serious escaping could be until everyone shared. Thank you for your advice! I will keep everyone updated as to what the behaviorist suggests.

[Guest LindsaySF]

You can get a muzzle keeper from Birdwell Enterprises to keep her muzzle on.

 

Have you done alone training for her separation anxiety?

[Guest Lgyure85]

You can get a muzzle keeper from Birdwell Enterprises to keep her muzzle on.

 

Have you done alone training for her separation anxiety?

 

I assume that's the sort of stuff our behaviorist is going to go through with us.