Crating Misbehavior - Escape, Bending, Peeing

[Guest earlkattangrey]

Hello all

 

First time grey owner, lifetime dog owner here. Got my big, mellow, confident, happy boy a week ago yesterday.

 

First, a little relevant background:

 

His foster mom had two greys of her own, one crated one not. The crated one was directly next to him in his crate. She says he didn't like the crate and had to be coaxed in, but was very good once in. She worked four 12 hour days a week, and he would be crated for a full 12 hrs. He peed in the crate two times: once the day after neuter surgery (he had an undescended testicle so it was a little more invasive), and once after getting tapeworm treatment. She had him three weeks.

 

I have a nine year old female 50 lb mutt and they get along great. He is submissive to her and he is already bonded to her. When I leave she is not crated, he is crated. She is likely NOT in sight when I am gone. I am away from the house no more than 8 hours/day.

 

Here's a basic/approximate timeline

-crated first time, good but peed, ~2-3 hrs

-added mirror (loves to stare at himself)

-crated, bent bars a little, peed, ~3hrs

-crated up to 8 hrs bending bars more, peeing, pushing tray out

-removed bedding from crate, draped sheet around crate except for front

-about 3 hrs alone, managed to fold front panel in and escape, no damage to house but peed

-added muzzle, radio: still peeing in crate, pushing tray out, muzzle stops bending/biting bars

-about 2 hrs, baby gated in kitchen (hard floor), other dog not confined to same room, chews/removes baby gate and pees on rug

-crated with muzzle, zip ties to block the tray from being pushed out - broke zip ties and pushed tray out, pees

-yesterday, crated & muzzled for 2 1/2 hrs at parents' house, other dog unconfined and likely not in sight: got muzzle off and destroyed it, badly bent bars, did not pee

 

He gets taken out 2x in the morning and I have stopped giving him more water before I leave. Other than the above he is GREAT. Working to keep separation anxiety at bay - leaving for short trips, etc and now as he's starting to shadow me in the house, trying to keep space between he and I.

 

Talked to his foster mom last night, read up in the forums about how for many greys just getting rid of the hated crate solves the problem. Problem with that is, I need him to not pee if that's to happen. He has had NO mistakes in the house with me home. He has gone up to 10 hours (overnight) without even asking to go potty (pacing). Anyway, we decided to try having my dog confined to the same room as him. I elected to do this with him NOT in the crate - a decision that frankly stresses me out a little (going on now!), after reading the thread on here about muzzling accompanied by graphic pics of stitched up hounds.

 

Anyway, they are baby gated to a kitchen and hallway, all hard floors. I am HOPING it was crate hatred combined with separation anxiety from both me and my other dog, and that this will solve everything. There are beds in there although for the peeing problem I know it would have been better not to have them - I just feel too bad to do that to my 9 year old girl and if it was stress, and not inability to hold it (as he has clearly demonstrated it's not), this will work. I have my boyfriend stopping by for a mid-afternoon potty break and check up as well.

 

I am ready to get a urinalysis but at this point he shows no other symptoms and signs point to this being mental not physical, and foster mom is in agreement.

 

In addition to adjusting, he hasn't been able to get much exercise since coming here because his coat hasn't arrived yet and it's freezing here. It's set to arrive today or tomorrow. I am a big believer in tired dog=happy dog and can't wait to get long walks started up.

 

Any advice or input is very much appreciated!!

 

Hello all

 

First time grey owner, lifetime dog owner here. Got my big, mellow, confident, happy boy a week ago yesterday.

 

First, a little relevant background:

 

His foster mom had two greys of her own, one crated one not. The crated one was directly next to him in his crate. She says he didn't like the crate and had to be coaxed in, but was very good once in. She worked four 12 hour days a week, and he would be crated for a full 12 hrs. He peed in the crate two times: once the day after neuter surgery (he had an undescended testicle so it was a little more invasive), and once after getting tapeworm treatment. She had him three weeks.

 

I have a nine year old female 50 lb mutt and they get along great. He is submissive to her and he is already bonded to her. When I leave she is not crated, he is crated. She is likely NOT in sight when I am gone. I am away from the house no more than 8 hours/day.

 

Here's a basic/approximate timeline

-crated first time, good but peed, ~2-3 hrs

-added mirror (loves to stare at himself)

-crated, bent bars a little, peed, ~3hrs

-crated up to 8 hrs bending bars more, peeing, pushing tray out

-removed bedding from crate, draped sheet around crate except for front

-about 3 hrs alone, managed to fold front panel in and escape, no damage to house but peed

-added muzzle, radio: still peeing in crate, pushing tray out, muzzle stops bending/biting bars

-about 2 hrs, baby gated in kitchen (hard floor), other dog not confined to same room, chews/removes baby gate and pees on rug

-crated with muzzle, zip ties to block the tray from being pushed out - broke zip ties and pushed tray out, pees

-yesterday, crated & muzzled for 2 1/2 hrs at parents' house, other dog unconfined and likely not in sight: got muzzle off and destroyed it, badly bent bars, did not pee

 

He gets taken out 2x in the morning and I have stopped giving him more water before I leave. Other than the above he is GREAT. Working to keep separation anxiety at bay - leaving for short trips, etc and now as he's starting to shadow me in the house, trying to keep space between he and I.

 

Talked to his foster mom last night, read up in the forums about how for many greys just getting rid of the hated crate solves the problem. Problem with that is, I need him to not pee if that's to happen. He has had NO mistakes in the house with me home. He has gone up to 10 hours (overnight) without even asking to go potty (pacing). Anyway, we decided to try having my dog confined to the same room as him. I elected to do this with him NOT in the crate - a decision that frankly stresses me out a little (going on now!), after reading the thread on here about muzzling accompanied by graphic pics of stitched up hounds.

 

Anyway, they are baby gated to a kitchen and hallway, all hard floors. I am HOPING it was crate hatred combined with separation anxiety from both me and my other dog, and that this will solve everything. There are beds in there although for the peeing problem I know it would have been better not to have them - I just feel too bad to do that to my 9 year old girl and if it was stress, and not inability to hold it (as he has clearly demonstrated it's not), this will work. I have my boyfriend stopping by for a mid-afternoon potty break and check up as well.

 

I am ready to get a urinalysis but at this point he shows no other symptoms and signs point to this being mental not physical, and foster mom is in agreement.

 

In addition to adjusting, he hasn't been able to get much exercise since coming here because his coat hasn't arrived yet and it's freezing here. It's set to arrive today or tomorrow. I am a big believer in tired dog=happy dog and can't wait to get long walks started up.

 

Any advice or input is very much appreciated!!

 

Depending on how today goes I've also have considered getting a kennel cab type crate instead of wire crate - has anyone had a grey that could destroy these?

[TheFullHouse]

It sounds to me like the issue is the crate and being separated from your other dog. I would give it a go and leave him out. If he's not peeing when you're home, his going is more than likely because he's crated and separated from the other dog. I'm not sure where you live or where the dog came from but if you're both from the same area, taking him outside for a period of time without a coat won't hurt him. These pups are raised on farms and trust me they don't have coat there so depending on where the farm was some are used to being outside in the cold. I had two that were from Colorado and they loved it outside, even when the temperature was in the teens they were the last to come in. They loved playing in the snow and cold.

 

I don't know how open you are to muzzling your other pups, but if you could muzzle both of them and try leaving him out of the crate, you may find that he does just fine not being in the crate. There are a lot of people on this board with only two that leave their pups unmuzzled all the time with no problems, especially if one is submissive. It might be worth a trial run.

[NeylasMom]

Well if he crated well at the foster mom's house, then it's likely not the crate. Some dogs with separation anxiety do better in the crate, some do better without - you'll have to figure that out as you proceed, but the very first thing I would do is confine your other dog to the room he is in, whether your grey is crated or not (if you have reasons to want to continue to use the crate for now, like the housetraining, then I would start with your grey crated and your other dog just in the room). It really sounds to me like having another dog in sight is issue here. I am guessing that will address the problems, but of course I would continue to do SA training as well. Patricia McConnell has a really great booklet - I'll Be Home Soon. You can find it pretty easily online (my adoption group sells it - if you ahve trouble finding it let me know and I'll PM you the link). It's only a booklet so it's an easy read, but it's jam packed with info, I consider it the SA bible.

 

You might also consider trying a DAP diffuser or collar. I actually prefer the collars these days, but you can only find them online and DAP can take 2-4 weeks to kick in. FYI, if you decide to try, the small fits my male, no problem - you can measure to be certain but I would think unless your boy is GIANT you could save a few bucks getting the small.

 

 

Depending on how today goes I've also have considered getting a kennel cab type crate instead of wire crate - has anyone had a grey that could destroy these?

Oh, meant to respond to this. A dog with SA can do amazing things so yes, I think he could destroy this or hurt himself in one of these as well. You need to address the underlying issue, doubtful that changing the type of crate will help. Possible he could feel more secure in this type of crate, but I think it's unlikely. You've already tried covering the wire crate and greyhounds aren't used to the travel crates like they are the wire ones.

[Guest TheUnrulyHound]

I have a hound EXACTLY like this!!! two of them actually..... here is what I do

 

Cheap sheet bedding, if it gets torn it can be thrown away without a lot of cost but it also absorbs pee so the hound is not laying in the pee while you are gone

 

Muzzle-if he can get it off make it tighter one notch at a time, mine bend bars with their teeth which is not good if they break a tooth! you can also buy muzzle keepers which is basically a small strip plastic collar that holds the muzzle on but I always fear they will choke and I remove all collars before I crate. Having the muzzle at the right tightness usually works unless you have a resourceful hound who just flat out knows exactly how to get one off.

 

Zip ties-the thick industrial black ones, these usually work BUT they have broken on one dogs crate, on that one I use these velcro strip ties that you use to bundle electric wires, since they are fabric and layered/wrapped around and around they are almost impossible to break. I do this at every connection point of the crate (where the crate is held together) and to keep the tray from sliding out.

 

Leash clips on the door, one on top, on the side between the two regular existing latches and one at the bottom

 

Radio/tv/window with open shades nearby so they can look outside

 

and lastly I use a OTC calming suppliment about 30 minutes before I leave, it is called "Calm Moments" and has chamomile and tryptophan. That really takes the edge off the anxiety.

 

I have tried to not crate one of mine and he got his muzzle off and destroyed things, pooped and peed and is dominant so I feared for my other hounds. This is the only way I can do it.

 

We have not had an escape in months and the peeing is not an issue anymore. After a few months I was able to stop giving the supplement and I think that the fact that the hounds have not had a successful break-out has calmed them down, they know any efforts are useless. If they got out again the process would start all over.

 

Luckily I work from home and I only leave a few times a week, mostly to go to the post office. only about once a week am I gone for over 5 hours

[Maddiesmom]

Maddie destroyed both the wire and the plastic airline crates with her SA when I first got her and she would howl. Luckily I live in a house by myself. I tried everything, the DAP diffuser, , radio, TV , and then took a leap of faith and took her out of the crate after she destroyed 3 crates (2 wire and 1 plastic) and she is fine, she usually is hanging out in my room on her bed, (or mine) and comes running down the stairs when she hears the garage door opening now. It took us months to get where we are but it was well worth it.

 

I would try doing what you are doing, leaving both dogs in the same room, uncrated. See if he does not pee and go from there, I think the stress of being in the crate and being in a new place is causing him to pee. Also try exercising him before you leave as a tired dog is a good dog, and maybe try a kong with peanut butter to get his mind off of you leaving. Take it one day at a time.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Maddiesmom

[Guest earlkattangrey]

Jillys: regarding the cold, he's from Florida and I'm in Indiana, so quite a change. He shivers within a few minutes outside here. However, this will be a nonissue hopefully no later than tomorrow when his coat and jammies arrive Thanks for the input though, maybe I don't need to worry so much in spring - he does have a thicker coat than most greys I've met.

 

re: muzzling my other dog - I don't think I could do this. She's nine, she's a model canine, she is my heart dog...when she was younger I had to muzzle her as part of dealing with SA. She absolutely despises it and besides that, the only way she wouldn't get out of it was to get one of those sleeve types and adjust it to be pretty tight. I feel pretty darn confident there won't be a problem though, as I said he is so darn submissive to her, shadows her outside, etc. It is clear he very much looks up to her. It also took a lot of careful effort to get her to be very relaxed about me being gone and to create positive association with my absence, and I do not want to jeopardize that by muzzling her; also trying to minimize the disruption to her life/routine/psyche and want her to loveher new lifestyle with new dog.

 

Neylas, thank you too for the advice. It is reassuring to hear that this may be as simple as keeping my other dog in close proximity. I think that if he pees today but is otherwise good, I will go back to the crate for him to work on housetraining but keep them both in one room together. Hopefully that won't be necessary. After reading that muzzling thread I just still cannot be completely at ease with them confined together unmuzzled, but this appears the best current hope.

 

And you are right, the kennel cab would be more a band aid than a cure, just a means to keep him safely confined rather than truly solving the problem, which is what I really want to happen.

[Trihounds]

Some good advice above - I can only add our experience. When our boy Brucie decided he didn't want / need to be in the crate anymore, it was clear. We found it destroyed and in another room. That was the end of it and we've never had a problem since. Start slowly and keep your fingers crossed. Trust it will work out!

[FiveRoooooers]

All good. When the boy is not crated, you might try putting a belly band on him, until he gets the message that peeing in the house is not allowed. They generally catch on pretty quickly.

[Guest earlkattangrey]

Maddie destroyed both the wire and the plastic airline crates with her SA when I first got her and she would howl. Luckily I live in a house by myself. I tried everything, the DAP diffuser, , radio, TV , and then took a leap of faith and took her out of the crate after she destroyed 3 crates (2 wire and 1 plastic) and she is fine, she usually is hanging out in my room on her bed, (or mine) and comes running down the stairs when she hears the garage door opening now. It took us months to get where we are but it was well worth it.

 

 

As soon as I can control the peeing problem (which may fix itself if I can reduce the stress), leaving him free in the house should be no problem. Today is the test, keeping my fingers crossed!

 

I would try doing what you are doing, leaving both dogs in the same room, uncrated. See if he does not pee and go from there, I think the stress of being in the crate and being in a new place is causing him to pee. Also try exercising him before you leave as a tired dog is a good dog, and maybe try a kong with peanut butter to get his mind off of you leaving. Take it one day at a time.

 

I would love to leave a peanut butter filled Kong or some other diversion, but with both dogs confined together and unsupervised I do not dare do this. While he is very submissive to my other dog, he is VERY food driven. Which is a shame, because I could have devised a scavenger hunt, left kongs, etc for them to keep busy.

 

I will be sure to update everyone on how today went, thanks again for the support!!

[Batmom]

I would strongly advise you NOT to crate this dog any longer.

 

Once they start trying to escape, you need to find another method of keeping the dog where you want, keeping multiple dogs apart, etc. They can hurt themselves very badly trying to get out and sometimes die that way.

 

Would suggest baby gates or exercise pen if you need to confine/separate.

[Guest earlkattangrey]

All good. When the boy is not crated, you might try putting a belly band on him, until he gets the message that peeing in the house is not allowed. They generally catch on pretty quickly.

 

I've only fairly recently learned of these. Some people think they are mean, but I would think it's only mean if you are keeping them on longer than the dog can be expected to hold it. But I would think they would take them off.

 

This might just be a really great solution, allowing me to keep him uncrated and stopping the peeing. Thank you for suggesting it!

 

I would strongly advise you NOT to crate this dog any longer.

 

Once they start trying to escape, you need to find another method of keeping the dog where you want, keeping multiple dogs apart, etc. They can hurt themselves very badly trying to get out and sometimes die that way.

 

Would suggest baby gates or exercise pen if you need to confine/separate.

 

I will only crate him again if he can be safe and calm in it - i.e. if the problem is SA from me and my other dog is causing this and if keeping my other dog around makes him okay (and I need to crate b/c of peeing). I baby gated him and he chewed it and tore it down no problem, but that was when the other dog was not in the same room or probably even visible. It appears he just wanted to get to be with her, because the destruction stops totally once that is the case - EXCEPT for the peeing. But I am hoping that is part of acting out because of how worked up he gets.

 

Some good advice above - I can only add our experience. When our boy Brucie decided he didn't want / need to be in the crate anymore, it was clear. We found it destroyed and in another room. That was the end of it and we've never had a problem since. Start slowly and keep your fingers crossed. Trust it will work out!

 

Thank you! The support here is very reassuring and comforting. I know we can lick this problem, we just have to find the secret recipe

Edited February 22, 2010 by earlkattangrey

[Batmom]

FWIW, I have one who can be somewhat fussy crated. Usually he is gated into a room from which he can easily see the other dog. Occasionally I leave them loose together and muzzled -- "other dog" isn't terribly fond of her muzzle but she forgets about that once nobody is watching her be pitiful . If you should need to try that, you can get plastic basket muzzles in all sizes, for all breeds, from petedge.com .

 

Good luck!

[Guest earlkattangrey]

I have a hound EXACTLY like this!!! two of them actually..... here is what I do

 

Cheap sheet bedding, if it gets torn it can be thrown away without a lot of cost but it also absorbs pee so the hound is not laying in the pee while you are gone

 

Muzzle-if he can get it off make it tighter one notch at a time, mine bend bars with their teeth which is not good if they break a tooth! you can also buy muzzle keepers which is basically a small strip plastic collar that holds the muzzle on but I always fear they will choke and I remove all collars before I crate. Having the muzzle at the right tightness usually works unless you have a resourceful hound who just flat out knows exactly how to get one off.

 

Zip ties-the thick industrial black ones, these usually work BUT they have broken on one dogs crate, on that one I use these velcro strip ties that you use to bundle electric wires, since they are fabric and layered/wrapped around and around they are almost impossible to break. I do this at every connection point of the crate (where the crate is held together) and to keep the tray from sliding out.

 

Leash clips on the door, one on top, on the side between the two regular existing latches and one at the bottom

 

Radio/tv/window with open shades nearby so they can look outside

 

and lastly I use a OTC calming suppliment about 30 minutes before I leave, it is called "Calm Moments" and has chamomile and tryptophan. That really takes the edge off the anxiety.

 

I have tried to not crate one of mine and he got his muzzle off and destroyed things, pooped and peed and is dominant so I feared for my other hounds. This is the only way I can do it.

 

We have not had an escape in months and the peeing is not an issue anymore. After a few months I was able to stop giving the supplement and I think that the fact that the hounds have not had a successful break-out has calmed them down, they know any efforts are useless. If they got out again the process would start all over.

 

Luckily I work from home and I only leave a few times a week, mostly to go to the post office. only about once a week am I gone for over 5 hours

 

Thanks for the tips. It's clear his crate antics have escalated because it is working. His escape was totally reinforced and all the misbehavior rewarded the first time he escaped, as you say "if they got out again the process would start all over."

 

I am very fortunate that he has been so good, aside from the peeing, when he's been loose in the house. So, I think I am going to remove the crate from the picture for now, HOWEVER, when I go to my parents' these tips will come in handy for securing him there - I only go there once every month or two, so hopefully we'll be past this by then, and as long as my other dog is on the same room he'll be okay.

 

You also just reminded me I have Dog Eeze at home! It has tryptophan in it. Maybe a few days of that, getting him to expect a routine and positive outcome, will help.

 

Thank you!

[Guest earlkattangrey]

Patricia McConnell has a really great booklet - I'll Be Home Soon. You can find it pretty easily online (my adoption group sells it - if you ahve trouble finding it let me know and I'll PM you the link). It's only a booklet so it's an easy read, but it's jam packed with info, I consider it the SA bible.

 

Also wanted you to know I appreciate the book recommendation. Even this issue works itself out I'm interested to hear what the author says on the topic of preventing SA. Although I've read a lot on the topic, I tend to go heavy on affection and reinforce bonding behaviors. It's a slippery slope I know. I placed a interlibrary loan request for this title and should have it next week.

[Guest TheUnrulyHound]

Thanks for the tips. It's clear his crate antics have escalated because it is working. His escape was totally reinforced and all the misbehavior rewarded the first time he escaped, as you say "if they got out again the process would start all over."

You said it a lot better than I could

 

 

I am very fortunate that he has been so good, aside from the peeing, when he's been loose in the house. So, I think I am going to remove the crate from the picture for now, HOWEVER, when I go to my parents' these tips will come in handy for securing him there - I only go there once every month or two, so hopefully we'll be past this by then, and as long as my other dog is on the same room he'll be okay.

 

You also just reminded me I have Dog Eeze at home! It has tryptophan in it. Maybe a few days of that, getting him to expect a routine and positive outcome, will help.

 

Thank you!

Believe me, I wouldn't crate if I did not have to. Out of 7 dogs I have in the house right now only three are crated.. the third one (the one that isn't a destructive escapee) is crated for medical reasons.

 

Good luck to you! seems you will be able to overcome this with patience and you have come to the right place for advice of all kinds

[PrairieProf]

And I'm just wondering, since I didn't see it mentioned, what size is your crate? The bent bars just made me wonder about the outside possibility that it might be small for a big boy which then led to him pushing against it more than he ordinarily would.

[Guest earlkattangrey]

And I'm just wondering, since I didn't see it mentioned, what size is your crate? The bent bars just made me wonder about the outside possibility that it might be small for a big boy which then led to him pushing against it more than he ordinarily would.

 

My crate is 42 x 28 x 31 and was recommended by his foster mom (so presumably the same size), and he had no crating problems with her. Reading here last night I started to get the idea that might be too small for him. I haven't measured him but he is 72lbs. He can clear the doorway of the crate without it hitting his back.

 

Anyway, I'm hoping I can stop using it altogether...(see update below).

[Guest earlkattangrey]

UPDATE!! Just got off the phone with the bf who stopped in to check on them...NO damaged baby gates! No savaging each other!! (for those of you not reading all this, I was worried after reading the thread about muzzles last night)

 

AND NO PEE!!

 

Hooray!!! :)

 

Just checked tracking and his jammies and coat should be waiting on my step! Hooray for long walks to come!!

 

May still try the belly band as I open up one room at a time while I'm gone.

 

THANK YOU all so much for all your support...this has been a long day at work but between this update and all the ideas here I feel much comforted!

[Trihounds]

Awesome news!! Keep up the momentum!

[Guest LindsaySF]

Well if he crated well at the foster mom's house, then it's likely not the crate.

Agreed. It's probably not being able to see the other dog. At the track kennels they are used to other Greys being crated on either side of them and above/below them. Some Greys freak out when no other dogs are around.

 

 

I'm glad that today went well!

 

 

My foster Sophie broke out of a crate at her first foster home (she totally destroyed the crate, it had to be thrown away). She will not be crated, but I can't leave her loose because if she has a seizure one of the other dogs might attack her. My solution has been exercise pens. I get mine from Digitpet.com.

 

I highly recommend you get an ex-pen, especially since you mention needing to confine your Grey at your parent's house. You can buy extension panels to make the pen as big as you need, and you can even keep your other dog next to, but separated from, your Grey when you aren't there. They are better than baby gates too because they come in taller sizes, and they can fit doorways that are too wide for gates.

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

[PrairieProf]

And I'm just wondering, since I didn't see it mentioned, what size is your crate? The bent bars just made me wonder about the outside possibility that it might be small for a big boy which then led to him pushing against it more than he ordinarily would.

 

My crate is 42 x 28 x 31 and was recommended by his foster mom (so presumably the same size), and he had no crating problems with her. Reading here last night I started to get the idea that might be too small for him. I haven't measured him but he is 72lbs. He can clear the doorway of the crate without it hitting his back.

 

Anyway, I'm hoping I can stop using it altogether...(see update below).

 

For the record I have a 59-pound girl and use a 48" crate. 42" does sound a bit on the small side to me especially for a male, though I've no doubt plenty on here have used that.

[Guest earlkattangrey]

Well when I came home just before 5pm all was happy, calm, and DRY! I was amazed how much calmer and happier he was when I arrived. Foster mom and folks here were right - this was all an issue of needing to be around my other dog to be happy.

 

In the future I will slowly work on his SA from the two of us, just because I want him to be a calm, confident happy boy no matter what the circumstances. But for the time being I am so pleased to have *hopefully* found the key to nailing down a daily routine that works.

 

Today he will get no afternoon visit and will be wearing the belly band I made him last night. I had a fun making this quick little project - had only used this machine I'd scored on Craigslist a few years ago one other time..see how dogs teach us and enrich our lives even indirectly?

 

 

And his jammies arrived

 

 

Kattan and his very important pal, Meeve

 

 

His cuteness

 

 

Thanks everyone and thanks for the continued ideas! Love the ex pen idea, as I have one of those huge doorways.

[TheFullHouse]

What a handsome boy! I'm so glad he had such a good day yesterday!

[FiveRoooooers]

Such cool names for your fur kids. Those jammies are so cute, and bravo with the homemade belly band! I'm so glad to hear your good report

[Guest earlkattangrey]

Thanks guys!

 

I should give a shout out to Fleece Fabrications, Tammy was very responsive via email, made them custom and got them in the mail for me SUPER fast and she did an awesome job! I even got to pick out my own fleece from the Joann Fabrics website