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No disrespect to Smiley and family, but the post about Apollo and the way he seems to have "gotten" his osteo piqued my interest in discussing this disease. You know, because we don't have to discuss it enough :P (<--- lame attempt at humour about something no where near funny.)

 

Here's the reason for my interest in discussion:

 

Apollo seems to have gotten his osteo from an injury. It sounds like he was perfectly fine before the brutal attack his food dish launched upon him and now.....this :angryfire And in such a horrible place that I can't even imagine any treatment is possible -- no surgery probably, likely too close to the eye for radiation...(hope I'm wrong though and some treatment is found).

 

My late Great BabyDane Echo developed osteo in her left shoulder at age 8. This is a shoulder that she had injured in the past once for sure, and I'm thinking maybe twice. The vet (greatest ortho man in Indiana IMHO) said, "well, we really don't know...long bones...tall dogs...heredity..." Because of her age and some deformity to her back legs, I chose not to amputate/chemo, just treat pain and let her go 3 months after diagnosis.

 

Now, the really interesting part:

 

My adopted (human, Jamaican) niece developed osteo in her tibia in her teens. She played soccer. She was perfectly healthy, no pain, no swelling, no symptoms. She was kicked in the shin and developed a contusion and hematoma. She had pain and the swelling never went away. Some point after the injury when things should have been cured and weren't she went to the base doctor and xrays revealed a bone lesion. Biopsy confirmed the cancer and Walter Reed did the amputation. She's fine now, in her 30s probably, we don't have a lot of contact so I don't know, moved back to the island I think. But the cancer was IN THE EXACT PLACE of her injury.

 

So I thought I'd open this for chat. I doubt any of us are going to cure this monster in this thread (well, maybe Aaron, if anyone can I'm convinced he can! :thumbs-up ) but I thought maybe if we all share similar stories, maybe Dr C can use it in his research.

 

Let's save the world! Please make discussion.

Angie, Pewter, and Storm-puppy

Forever missing Misty-Mousie (9/9/99 - 10/5/15)
Fort Wayne, Indiana

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I'll send off an email to Dr Couto tonight, I'll ask if he has noticed a relationship between osteo and injury.

 

My own vet and I discussed this as a number of hounds I know have had injuries, then a few months later developed osteo. None of them developed it in the same place though. She said she wouldn't be surprised if the stress of an injury made what was dormant become active.

Casual Bling & Hope for Hounds
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Janet & the hounds Maggie and Allen Missing my baby girl Peanut, old soul Jake, quirky Jet, Mama Grandy and my old Diva Miz Foxy; my angel, my inspiration. You all brought so much into my light, and taught me so much about the power of love, you are with me always.
If you get the chance to sit it out or dance.......... I hope you dance! Missing our littlest girl.

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I actually had very similar idea's running thru my brain about this very thing!

I personally know of 3 hounds that were injured,, then 'developed' OS at the injury site years,, in one case only months later.

 

Very interesting,,, I'll be checking back to see what others say!

:wubsite

the more I learn, the more i know, the more I HATE CANCER!!!

lorinda, mom to the ever revolving door of Foster greyhounds

Always in my heart: Teala (LC Sweet Dream) , Pepton, Darbee-Do (Hey Barb) , Rascal (Abitta Rascal), Power (Beyond the Power), and the miracle boy LAZER (2/21/14), Spirit (Bitter Almonds) 8/14

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Guest VaGreymom

We just lost our 7 year old to osteo. As far as we know she did not have any injury, but who really knows if she had an injury prior to us adopting her. She developed the osteo in her shoulder. It was my understanding from a speaking engagement I heard Dr. Couto say it is suspected that racing injuries do play a part with osteo. I may be dreaming though. I am really intersted to see if sibblings play a part in osteo.

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Email sent to Dr Couto, I'll report back when he answers.

Casual Bling & Hope for Hounds
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Janet & the hounds Maggie and Allen Missing my baby girl Peanut, old soul Jake, quirky Jet, Mama Grandy and my old Diva Miz Foxy; my angel, my inspiration. You all brought so much into my light, and taught me so much about the power of love, you are with me always.
If you get the chance to sit it out or dance.......... I hope you dance! Missing our littlest girl.

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Guest Smiley

I'm jumping in on this because my vet brought a very relevant point a week ago when we first when in for an exam. He said when he son played soccer as a child that parents would be furious if their child couldn't play due to a lack of shin pads. He said the reasoning behind no guards/no play in this league was that studies have shown that repeated trauma to an area, like the shins of a soccer player, can result in a an increased chance of bone cancer. He said that there is discussion out there that that is why greys get it so often-because as athletes, the amount of force exerted over time is so hard on the body. My two cents.

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This is a biggie with me. My son was diagnosed with undifferented sarcoma at the base of his spine when he was 11. A year or so earlier, he had fallen on a rail while rollerblading in the exact same spot. That was one of the questions I asked and was poo-pooed outright. He also had a major concussion at age 4 (contact was the base of the skull/top of the spinal column). I also wondered if the trauma could have travelled down. I would be very interested in what everyone hears and the theories out there. He is considered cancer free now, he is 18, but still has issues from it. Thank you for raising this! Cindy

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Cindy with Miss Fancypants, Paris Bueller, Zeke, and Angus 
Dante (Dg's Boyd), Zoe (In a While), Brady (Devilish Effect), Goose (BG Shotgun), Maverick (BG ShoMe), Maggie (All Trades Jax), Sherman (LNB Herman Bad) and Indy (BYB whippet) forever in my heart
The flame that burns the brightest, burns the fastest and leaves the biggest shadow

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I know that in human cancer there are theories that certain persons are predisposed to it. My blood family has been blissfully and blessedly free of cancer save for some sun-related skin cancers. My best friend's family is loaded with cancer of all shapes and sizes, as is my boyfriend's family. All of us are native to the same city so we can't blame regional...(searching, searching....)issues....contaminates....well, you know. I've heard theory that "cancer" is really a viral infection and some fight it better then others. We know something causes normal cells to start to reproduce in a freaky way, that's what a neoplasm is. so what causes the mutating to start happening? Injury/trauma sure makes sense to me...but can you use logic when dealing with a horror story like this monster is?

Angie, Pewter, and Storm-puppy

Forever missing Misty-Mousie (9/9/99 - 10/5/15)
Fort Wayne, Indiana

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Johnny had his leg amputated, due to Osteo, Dec 3. The month before that he had tripped on his way outside and had a bruise (knot) on his leg. The knot went down. A few weeks later the same thing happened and the knot grew from a golf-ball to a softball type of tumor on his leg. I believe he had the cancer gene but it was stimulated by the bruise. We have had three cases of Osteo since July but this was the only one "caused" by injury.

 

Hugs and kisses to all the furbabies and their parents that are fighting this disease.

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Then God sent the Greyhound to live among man and remember. And when the Day comes,

God will call the Greyhound to give Testament, and God will pass judgment on man.

(Persian Proverb)

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Guest FastDogsOwnMe

I have long suspected this. I always worry about the leg break site on my Whippet. However, it's been nearly twelve years since he broke his leg as a young adult, and so far, so good.

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I would like to mention the sibling question, more like Pedigree question. All of mine with osteo have had XXX XXX in their Pedigree. If you remember back a few years Dennis and Zinger both were patients of Dr Couto's. The boys were mirror images of each other and were half brothers. Dem Bones was Zingers littermate. I don't know if we are allowed to mention the boys father name. There is also another greyhound back in the 70's that they all have in their pedigree. All my greyhounds with Osteo have had this 70's greyhound in their pedigree.

 

I believe this was discussed on Circle of Grey a few years ago also.

Vallerysiggy.jpg

Then God sent the Greyhound to live among man and remember. And when the Day comes,

God will call the Greyhound to give Testament, and God will pass judgment on man.

(Persian Proverb)

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Guest scfilby

As far as I understand, cancer, simply put, is mutant (deformed, damaged, ill) cells that replicate. There are many examples of cancer in humans caused from untreated long term infections. I know a girl that developed cancer in the spine after having a long undiagnosed cyst. Wisdom teeth that fail to emerge and are not removed can cause cancer, HPV, polyps, etc. I read in the paper of a girl who developed brain cancer after an infection from a piercing migrated.

 

I think it is reasonable that bad bruising on a bone could develop cancer, but I would expect it to take a good period of time..

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Note that it's real dangerous to compare human osteo with canine osteo- not that anybody has, but when talking about injury = osteo, it might be important to look at the figures. In humans, the incidence of osteo is about 900 per 300 million in the US, meaning about one per 333,000 (3 per million), mainly in the 15-30 age bracket. It's rare- it's in the same class as being struck by lightning. Conversely, in large-breed dogs, I seem to recall someone throwing numbers around like 25% of greyhounds dying from osteo, and it's on the other end of the age spectrum.

 

And that's important in the context of injury; if injury = osteo in kids, that implies something goes wrong with some copy protection feature in the cell; instead of just *stopping*, it goes nuts, and that leads to amputation. In the canine, it seems to be genetic, presumably with a strong environmental component- trauma (maybe even micro-fractures from racing?) is correlated, but I have questions about the dietary component as well (carbohydrate intake), as well as fluoride. I had a long post on this ages ago:

 

http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php?showtopic=182959&st=0&p=3031976entry3031976

 

Anecdotally, The Lisa has a co-worker in the lab who has a relative that had osteo as a child. He was taken home to die, living in a country that doesn't exactly have the means for managing that sort of thing. Instead, they fed him turmeric and honey- as in bags of turmeric, and gobs of honey. The doctor was surprised to see him come back several months later; the tumor was gone, no amputation. Possibly apocryphal, I dunno.

 

I do wish that opioid pain killers weren't contraindicated with naltrexone; if that weren't the case, I suspect there might be some greater interest in using naltrexone for osteosarcoma.

 

ETA: Forgot to note that because osteo usually occurs in older greyhounds (whereas it is found mainly in younger humans), it implies there's an immune component. Ultimately, all cancers are caused by an immune component: the inability of the body's immune system to differentiate between "good" cells and cancerous ones- which the body does with great success every day, destroying pre-cancerous cells all the time. It implies that amplifying the immune system somehow may combat osteo; it has been suggested this is why naltrexone seems to help in some humans that are fighting cancer, by increasing beta endorphin levels, among other things.

Edited by ahicks51

Coco (Maze Cocodrillo)

Minerva (Kid's Snipper)

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Whenever there is an injury in a bone, it always increases the chance of ca.

 

My DD is a radiation therapist @ NYC medical Center and she sees it all the time.

 

 

ROBIN ~ Mom to: Beau Think It Aint, Chloe JC Allthewayhome, Teddy ICU Drunk Sailor, Elsie N Fracine , Ollie RG's Travertine, Ponch A's Jupiter~ Yoshi, Zoobie & Belle, the kitties.

Waiting at the bridge Angel Polli Bohemian Ocean , Rocky, Blue,Sasha & Zoobie & Bobbi

Greyhound Angels Adoption (GAA) The Lexus Project

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In some cases, particularly where cancer diagnosis very rapidly follows an observed injury, it seems to me far more likely that the response to bump, fall, etc. was significant because the cancer was already present.

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

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Guest MorganKonaAlex

I tried to research if there was a correlation between injury and/or hardware and cancer. Here are a few articles that someone forwarded to me.

 

Rosin A, Rowland GN: Undifferentiated Sarcoma in a dog following chronic irritation by a metallic foreign body and concurrent infection, Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association 17:593-598, 1981.

 

Bennett D, Campbell JR, Brown, P: Osteosarcoma associated with healed fractures, Journal of the Small Animal Practitioner 20:13-18, 1979.

 

Stevenson, S, Holm, RB, Pohler OEM et al: Fracture-associated sarcoma in the dog, Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association 180:1189, 1982.

 

Sinibaldi K, Rosen, H, Liu S et al: Tumors associated with metallic implants in animals, Clin Orthop 118:257-266, 1976.

 

Knecht CD, Priester WA: Osteosarcoma in dogs: a study of previous trauma, fracture and fracture fixation, Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association 14: 82-84, 1978.

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I have always wondered if Flossie's cancer was a result of a dog attack. She was attacked by my neighbor's dog on her right side at her ribs, about 2 years later she developed Chondrosarcoma which is cancer of the cartlidge in her rib where she was attacked. She lived with her cancer for a year before it took her. My Vet said that the cancer probably was not caused by the attack. I still to this day think it had something to do with it. Flossie had always been a very healthy girl. I will be following this thread to see what everyone else has to say.

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Cosmo tangled with some sort of animal and got bitten on her lower right leg in September of 08. She subsequently developed an infection in that leg which we cleared up with a round of antibiotics. Eight months later she developed osteo in her right shoulder. No idea if there's any correlation but she'd never had any medical problems whatsoever before that infection.

...............Chase (FTH Smooth Talker), Morgan (Cata), Reggie (Gable Caney), Rufus
(Reward RJ). Fosters check in, but they don't check out.
Forever loved -- Cosmo (System Br Mynoel), March 11, 2002 - October 8, 2009.
Miss Cosmo was a lady. And a lady always knows when to leave.

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In some cases, particularly where cancer diagnosis very rapidly follows an observed injury, it seems to me far more likely that the response to bump, fall, etc. was significant because the cancer was already present.

 

and that's entirely possible in my niece. we'll never know since she didn't have any symptoms before her injury. the injury never healed and the cancer was at the exact place of impact. we'll just never know for sure

Angie, Pewter, and Storm-puppy

Forever missing Misty-Mousie (9/9/99 - 10/5/15)
Fort Wayne, Indiana

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Guest bigorangedog

Wish I knew. But all the osteo dogs I've had have been adopted as seniors or almost-seniors (ages 9.5, 7, 7, and 11), so I know nothing about their past medical history.

 

However, my vet's dog had a bad break in his leg which had to be set, got infected, had to have rods inserted, healed up....and then about a year later he developed osteo in that leg and it broke again. At the time of the initial break and subsequent x-rays during the time of the surgery and healing, there was no indication of osteo.

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Guest KennelMom

In some cases, particularly where cancer diagnosis very rapidly follows an observed injury, it seems to me far more likely that the response to bump, fall, etc. was significant because the cancer was already present.

 

I agree.

 

I remember in nursing school learning that the when people say "grandma fell and broke her hip" that what actually happened is "the hip broke and caused the grandma to fall"...not usually osteo in older humans, but the principle is similar - bone is weakened by a disease process and breaks/is injured from natural use or what would otherwise be a minor/insignificant injury is much more severe.

 

However, my vet's dog had a bad break in his leg which had to be set, got infected, had to have rods inserted, healed up....and then about a year later he developed osteo in that leg and it broke again. At the time of the initial break and subsequent x-rays during the time of the surgery and healing, there was no indication of osteo.

 

I do remember Dr. C talking about how osteo seems to "love" rods in limbs.

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As promised, here is Dr Couto's response to me this morning

 

 

Dr Couto says "Dogs (not just hounds) have a higher risk for developing OSA if they have had a surgical repair of a fracture and have hardware (nails, wires, pins, etc). Trauma does not seem to be a precipitating factor"

Edited by foxysmom

Casual Bling & Hope for Hounds
Summer-3bjpg.jpg
Janet & the hounds Maggie and Allen Missing my baby girl Peanut, old soul Jake, quirky Jet, Mama Grandy and my old Diva Miz Foxy; my angel, my inspiration. You all brought so much into my light, and taught me so much about the power of love, you are with me always.
If you get the chance to sit it out or dance.......... I hope you dance! Missing our littlest girl.

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While I hate this disease, I find this discussion absolutely fascinating from a medical standpoint. I used to help take care of all of our broken leg pups at the kennel...doing the bandage changes, etc...so dogs with hardware is someting I've seen A LOT. I would be interested to know if they are working on some kind of alternative hardware for use in repairing fractures that may possibly NOT encourage osteo. Also wondering if the incidence is as high in a dog that HAD hardware but later had it removed.

 

I agree with Jey as far as the injury thoughts go. It's likely that the injuries occurred on the level they did because the area was already weakened by a festering cancer just waiting to pounce.

 

As someone with lupus that just seemingly appeared out of nowhere, I know that things can lie dormant for years and may never become active at all. All it takes is some sort of trauma for a problem to rear its ugly head. dry.gif

 

As an aside...how do you pronounce Dr. "Couto" ?

Edited by krissn333

Kristin in Moline, IL USA with Ozzie (MRL Crusin Clem), Clarice (Clarice McBones), Latte and Sage the IGs, and the kitties: Violet and Rose
Lovingly Remembered: Sutra (Fliowa Sutra) 12/02/97-10/12/10, Pinky (Pick Me) 04/20/03-11/19/12, Fritz (Fritz Fire) 02/05/01 - 05/20/13, Ace (Fantastic Ace) 02/05/01 - 07/05/13, and Carrie (Takin the Crumbs) 05/08/99 - 09/04/13.

A cure for cancer can't come soon enough.--

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