Coccidia

[Guest mcsheltie]

I was in the process of replying to FrostyBottoms topic and realized I was about to hijack the thread So I am posting my thoughts as a new topic. This is something I have wondered about for a long time.

 

I am a show dog handler. Dogs routinely come to me with worms, giardia and coccidia. The Greyhounds we have adopted and fostered have been no different. Many breeders have a coccidia problem and don't even know it. Their puppies go through a period of diarrhea, but if they have good immune systems they get over it. It becomes dormant in adults. But in times of stress it will raise it's ugly head. Because I am anal, because negative fecals do not mean the dog is free of parasites, because I have puppies and I have a responsibility to my clients that their dogs will stay healthy when they come here, any dog coming into my house gets a round of Panacur, Flagyl and a dose of Baycox before they get full run of the yard.

 

Grey owners complain over and over about diarrhea. How many of us have had lengthy discussions on stress related diarrhea alone? Our Greys come from farms and kennels that have housed large numbers of dogs for years. Why wouldn't they have the same problems (i.e. coccidia) as other dog breeders?

 

Albon is the normal treatment for coccidia. Unfortunately Albon isn't very effective. It stops the shedding of Oocysts, but in a large number of cases it will drive coccidia back to it's dormant state and not totally get rid of it. Also many vets do not prescribe it long enough. Baycox is used in other countries but is not approved by the FDA. It is a one time treatment and totally wipes out coccidia. Both dormant and active. I used to get it in Canada but found it at a better price in Australia.

 

Adoption groups routinely treat for worms and giardia. But does anyone routinely treat for coccidia? Since it is notorious for it's ability to go dormant and finding it in fecal samples is difficult I have always wondered why it is not considered more often with reoccurring diarrhea. And why don't groups add it to their vetting regimen?

[Guest kydie]

This is very interesting, never thought about this, and your point is interesting, glad you posted

[Guest eaglflyt]

I completely agree.

[Guest FrostyBottoms]

So is Baycox not at all available in the US?

Will treating Frosty & Vinny for coccidia if they don't have it hurt them?

If not, I will ask the vet to treat them. My problem right now is I am concerned with stopping them from eating their poop until they are treated for something. At this point, seeing all the rice in their poop, I think the only thing they may be surviving on is poop. Does that sound crazy?

[Batmom]

If the vet has done a fecal, s/he would see coccidia unless the infection is mild, and if the infection is mild, it won't produce the symptoms you're seeing in an adult animal.

 

Mostly you would see symptoms in puppies and immune-compromised animals. Maybe some coming out of kennels with not-so-hot sanitation *or* who didn't realize they had an infected animal. Usually doesn't affect adults unless the infestation is pretty bad.

 

ETA: As Julie notes, it's a good idea for a kennel to be on the proactive side about stuff like this because it's hard to get rid of once you've got it.

[Guest Energy11]

I brought it home once from when I worked at the vet in Florida, no doubt, on my shoes! It was treated, and my dogs were fine, but, after that, I bleached my shoes, and used Lysol daily.

[Guest TeddysMom]

All the rescue dogs that have come through the kennel in FL or now here have the test done for coccidia, giardia and the normal parasites. I do the 3 day panacur, flagyl and 10 days of Albon. It has never hurt any of the dogs and I feel better knowing that they are parasite free when they leave me for their new homes. It was so common in FL when we lived there that I didn't even bother paying for the tests. I then only had to watch for tapes which most of them had. If you have a website where you order you Baycox, I would love to have it.

[Guest mcsheltie]

Mostly you would see symptoms in puppies and immune-compromised animals. Maybe some coming out of kennels with not-so-hot sanitation *or* who didn't realize they had an infected animal. Usually doesn't affect adults unless the infestation is pretty bad.

 

I agree. In this case my thought was vaccination was the stressor that allowed either a bacteria overgowth to occur or dormant coccidia or giardia to proliferate.

 

Treatment of coccidia or giardia will not hurt even if it is not needed.

 

I learned about all of this many years ago when I got a new Maine Coon. He brought coccidia with him. Albon was not effective. It worked on some, not on others and it just kept reoccurring. I spent a lot of time and A LOT of money and lost a lot of blood treating multiple cats daily I finally had to figure out how to get rid of it myself because all my vet knew to do was throw Albon at them. Bird breeders also use Baycox. Coccidia is a huge problem (fatal) for them.

 

Baycox seems pricey but a bottle goes a long way. I get it from here. Where ever you get it be sure to buy the 5% solution (not 2.5%) Dose is .09 x weight in lbs. The price on the web site is in AUS dollars. It cost $75 USD. One bottle will treat about 35 Greys. That works out to be $2.20 per dog.

 

There is also a drug called Ponazuril that kills coccidia and is sold in the US. It is sold OTC for horses and comes in a paste. So it would need to be diluted to the appropriate dose. Once in a while you will find a vet who carries it or it can be compounded. It is also more effective than Albon. Shelters use it prophylactically on puppies and kittens. I haven't researched the dose, because Baycox works so well.

 

ETA: LOL! I can't even keep track of my own posts. Thought I was in Frostybottom's thread. Not my own

Edited December 31, 2009 by mcsheltie

[winnie]

Our 6 y/o grey Celeste recently tested positive for Coccidia during a routine fecal. She showed ZERO symptoms - no Big D at all. We did the round of Albon and need to run another fecal.

[Guest mcsheltie]

Our 6 y/o grey Celeste recently tested positive for Coccidia during a routine fecal. She showed ZERO symptoms - no Big D at all. We did the round of Albon and need to run another fecal.

That is my point in thinking groups should treat for this during their vetting. How many Greys are carriers and when stressed this causes diarrhea. A one time treatment of Baycox, costing a couple bucks, would take care of it.

[winnie]

Our 6 y/o grey Celeste recently tested positive for Coccidia during a routine fecal. She showed ZERO symptoms - no Big D at all. We did the round of Albon and need to run another fecal.

That is my point in thinking groups should treat for this during their vetting. How many Greys are carriers and when stressed this causes diarrhea. A one time treatment of Baycox, costing a couple bucks, would take care of it.

 

We've had Celeste since April 2006. She's had annual fecals every year - this just showed up last month. So, more than likely, she picked it up recently in our back yard...

Edited December 31, 2009 by winnie

[Guest mcsheltie]

So is Baycox not at all available in the US?

Will treating Frosty & Vinny for coccidia if they don't have it hurt them?

If not, I will ask the vet to treat them. My problem right now is I am concerned with stopping them from eating their poop until they are treated for something. At this point, seeing all the rice in their poop, I think the only thing they may be surviving on is poop. Does that sound crazy?

No it doesn't. They are passing food through so quickly they are not getting nutrients from it. But they are giving it a good try by recycling it. Yuck!

 

I have had poop eaters here and some have had explosive diarrhea as a result. You could be in the middle of a viscous circle. Something caused one to get a loose stool - not digesting properly and both started eating poop because of the undigested food in it. So around you go!

 

Someone had mentioned earlier about making sure the rice is cooked to death. Dogs really don't digest rice that easily. Cook it until it is mush.

[Guest trevdog]

Interesting....we just had Reiley treated for it too. She had a variety of worms when we got her and had those treated, but her output was still loose. I took a sample in and she had coccidia too. I'll have to see what the vet gave her, she's better now. Pretty sure it was the Albon though. If it reoccurs, I'll check the other options mentioned here. We live in a horse communtiy so I'm sure there's a supply of Ponazuril around here somewhere.

Edited December 31, 2009 by trevdog

[Burpdog]

Interesting. Never saw this in adult Dobes or Danes, only puppies.

[Guest speedoketo]

"I agree. In this case my thought was vaccination was the stressor that allowed either a bacteria overgowth to occur or dormant coccidia or giardia to proliferate."

 

I'm sorry but this is incorrect. Vaccination does not make your dog immunocompromised and it is not nearly enough of a stressor to depress your dog's immune system. Here's an example - if you vaccinate a bunch of hounds you'd never expect to see any of them get bacterial infections from it unless it was introduced by the puncture wound from the needle because the site wasn't clean. If you take that same group of greyhounds a few weeks later, stick them all in a truck for 20 hours and ship them across the US THEN you will likely see some of them get sick, especially if they don't have access to food or water or if it's very hot/cold (I'm not trying to threadjack with shipping conditions, its just a theoretical example). This is well documented in horses and cows (google "shipping fever" if you're curious) who are treated like this regularly.

 

Also - think critically for a second. Horses, birds, and dogs all have very unique physiology. You should NOT be treating your dog with horse and bird medicine! If the drug is approved by the FDA for use in dogs then go ahead and use it but if not you could seriously hurt your animal. Different species respond differently to drugs and your vet understands these interactions. Some random examples - lincosamide antibiotics are great for dogs but will KILL any pocket pet species you give them to. Drugs that require glucuronidation in the liver aren't well tolerated by cats since they have fewer enzymes to handle it so these drugs are toxic to cats at much lower doses. Leave the drugs to your vet or at the very least make sure the drug is FDA approved in the United States. Sometimes the reason it's not approved here has to do with money and interests of the pharmaceutical companies but more often than not its because the drug wasn't tested to our government's satisfaction.

 

Also I'm kind of surprised by the response to this post. Typically this is a very low-drug forum with people looking for ways to reduce costs and unnecessary treatments and give the lowest dose possible (usually for very good reasons). I can understand a deworming program like the one you suggest if you run a breeding operation or a huge kennel with lots of animals coming and going. However, I don't understand why people with just a few adult dogs would just go ahead and treat for this regardless of what shows up in the fecal if the dog has no clinical signs. Coccidiosis is a puppy disease, adult dogs have the immune system to take care of the infection on their own or at least reduce it to a subclinical level. If your dog becomes immunocompromised (not by vaccines, which doesn't happen, but by things like cancer) then go ahead and treat. There is an endless list of things you could give to your dog as a precaution simply because it won't hurt but there's a small chance it might help.

 

Moral of the story: just because you run a kennel you don't get the same privileges as veterinarians. Vets are allowed, by law, to use drugs "off label" (it's extremely common to use human drugs in animals since there's just not enough money for enough animal trials) but they base this decision on scientific studies. If your animal gets sick because you took some stranger's advice on a forum to use a non FDA approved drug meant for birds on your dog you shouldn't be surprised.

[inugrey]

My vet and I chatted briefly about this yesterday because Inu always seems to get diarrhea. He basically said what a few other have said, if an adult dog becomes sick from coccidia there is something else going on as well.

 

Very interesting post Speedoketo good food for thought.

[winnie]

My vet and I chatted briefly about this yesterday because Inu always seems to get diarrhea. He basically said what a few other have said, if an adult dog becomes sick from coccidia there is something else going on as well.

 

Very interesting post Speedoketo good food for thought.

 

I guess we should consider ourselves lucky that Celeste never actually showed signs of being sick from coccidia... no Big D, etc. DH and I just need to be more diligent about cleaning up our yard after the dogs go potty... Celeste isn't a poop eater (that we know of), but she sure likes digging holes in the mud.

 

I would never recommend giving any dog a medication that was not approved here in the US or approved for dogs - just not willing to take that chance.

[Guest mcsheltie]

 

 

I'm sorry but this is incorrect. Vaccination does not make your dog immunocompromised and it is not nearly enough of a stressor to depress your dog's immune system. Here's an example - if you vaccinate a bunch of hounds you'd never expect to see any of them get bacterial infections from it unless it was introduced by the puncture wound from the needle because the site wasn't clean. If you take that same group of greyhounds a few weeks later, stick them all in a truck for 20 hours and ship them across the US THEN you will likely see some of them get sick, especially if they don't have access to food or water or if it's very hot/cold (I'm not trying to threadjack with shipping conditions, its just a theoretical example). This is well documented in horses and cows (google "shipping fever" if you're curious) who are treated like this regularly.

 

Also - think critically for a second. Horses, birds, and dogs all have very unique physiology. You should NOT be treating your dog with horse and bird medicine! If the drug is approved by the FDA for use in dogs then go ahead and use it but if not you could seriously hurt your animal. Different species respond differently to drugs and your vet understands these interactions. Some random examples - lincosamide antibiotics are great for dogs but will KILL any pocket pet species you give them to. Drugs that require glucuronidation in the liver aren't well tolerated by cats since they have fewer enzymes to handle it so these drugs are toxic to cats at much lower doses. Leave the drugs to your vet or at the very least make sure the drug is FDA approved in the United States. Sometimes the reason it's not approved here has to do with money and interests of the pharmaceutical companies but more often than not its because the drug wasn't tested to our government's satisfaction.

 

Also I'm kind of surprised by the response to this post. Typically this is a very low-drug forum with people looking for ways to reduce costs and unnecessary treatments and give the lowest dose possible (usually for very good reasons). I can understand a deworming program like the one you suggest if you run a breeding operation or a huge kennel with lots of animals coming and going. However, I don't understand why people with just a few adult dogs would just go ahead and treat for this regardless of what shows up in the fecal if the dog has no clinical signs. Coccidiosis is a puppy disease, adult dogs have the immune system to take care of the infection on their own or at least reduce it to a subclinical level. If your dog becomes immunocompromised (not by vaccines, which doesn't happen, but by things like cancer) then go ahead and treat. There is an endless list of things you could give to your dog as a precaution simply because it won't hurt but there's a small chance it might help.

 

Moral of the story: just because you run a kennel you don't get the same privileges as veterinarians. Vets are allowed, by law, to use drugs "off label" (it's extremely common to use human drugs in animals since there's just not enough money for enough animal trials) but they base this decision on scientific studies. If your animal gets sick because you took some stranger's advice on a forum to use a non FDA approved drug meant for birds on your dog you shouldn't be surprised.

 

 

The purpose of this thread was to throw out some food for thought as to a possible cause of a widespread greyhound problem... Big D.

 

Yes, Coccidia is a puppy disease. Yes, a healthy adult normally reduces it to a subclinical level. But adults will have periods of shedding the oocysts and infect other dogs, without showing symptoms themselves. And it will cause intermittent diarrhea in stressed adults. It is not easily detected in stool samples. Often samples have to be checked repeatedly every 48 hours to catch it.

 

Our Greys frequently HAD diarrhea when stressed. Some would have loose stools after a M&G. We would go lure coursing and some would have loose stools. We'd travel, some would have loose stools. No one could find any reason for it. I treated them with Baycox and have had no problems since. I have been working with animals professionally for 35 years and have been very proactive in their health care. Many times my vets have not had answers and I have found them. The coccidia infection in my cats is one example.

 

I do disagree with your first statement. You could spend hours reading through documented cases of vaccine mediated immune problems. Also, vaccines can and do cause immunosuppression.

 

Secondly, I agree that NO ONE, myself included, should administer drugs to their animals with out first verifying that the information is correct. The information I gave is easily verifiable by your vet. Baycox has been dispensed by veterinarians in other countries (for cats and dogs) for years. In fact your vet is able prescribe it. Your vet can get permission from the FDA to import it. Ponazuril has been used for years in the US. I learned about Ponazuril from the veterinarian at Ingham Co Animal Control, Lansing MI. Who in turn learned of its use at MSU. Your vet would also be able to prescribe it for you. Because my vet had no solution for my problem I searched out alternate treatments. These were already being prescribed for cats and dogs in other countries and here in the US.

 

Anyway… the point of my original post was I think that treatment for coccidia in Greys coming off the farm or track would be worthwhile. To quote you > “I can understand a deworming program like the one you suggest if you run a breeding operation or a huge kennel with lots of animals coming and going.” < This is exactly where Greys coming into adoption groups are from, large kennels and breeding operations. Please reread the original post. I did not suggest dog owners should run out and treat their dogs for coccidia.

 

Now on to celebrating New Years… may everyone have new year filled with bouncing poop!

[krissn333]

My ex's westie got coccidia at least once a year. She WAS immune-compromised though, due to being on low dose pred for much of her later life to control an IBD-type problem. AND, they walked her in the neighborhood for potty time...and she liked to eat rabbit poop

[Guest TeddysMom]

Moral of the story: just because you run a kennel you don't get the same privileges as veterinarians. Vets are allowed, by law, to use drugs "off label" (it's extremely common to use human drugs in animals since there's just not enough money for enough animal trials) but they base this decision on scientific studies. If your animal gets sick because you took some stranger's advice on a forum to use a non FDA approved Idrug meant for birds on your dog you shouldn't be surprised.

 

I'm sure it sounded as though I made this decisions on my own as a rescue person, I didn't. Everything I did with the rescue boxers was either suggested by our vet and or approved by our vet. I don't suggest that people should run out and experiment with their dogs lives to save a few dollars, it is not worth it. On the other hand, I don't run to the vet every time my dogs have a minor problem that I am well qualified to take care of and if I can save money on an alternative treatment, I discuss it with a vet I trust before I do it. I think the whole key is to find a vet you can trust to help you rather than try to rip you off which is pretty hard to do unfortunatly