Kidneys

[Guest HappyHarleysMom]

I had a scare last week with Harley having neurological symptoms which prompted a trip to the vet, bloodwork, urinalysis. He has started medicine for low thyroid, and the episode may be related to the thryoid, but if it happens again, an MRI to check for brain cancer is next. So, I'm praying for it to have been thryoid. He had trouble walking, dragging right front and right back paws, threw up, and held is head sideways. He was panting, had trouble putting one paw in front of the other. It was a scarey sight.

 

On top of that, the test results also indicated some high kidney readings in which the vet attributed to kidney disease - and said it is probably kidney failure due to old age. Harley turned 9 in May. Well, while talking with the vet today about the thyroid, he also said I should have the kidneys checked again in 5 or 6 months, that it is probably just how Harley is, meaning normal for him.

 

I was upset and scared first about the vet calling it kidney disease, and kidney failure from old age, but now I'm confused by his remarks again today. I can't find what the normal BUN/creatinine ratio for greys is--Harley has clean urine with no protein leaking, but high BUN and high creatinine. The vet said a UPSC was not done but that another test was done that detects protein in urine, or micro protein--something like that--I can't remember.

 

The other thing I don't understand and the vet didn't bring up--maybe it's nothing at all--but the test results said Platelet count was 107, with a long explanation about platelet clumps were detected. Anyone know what this means?

 

I had the vet office fax me his test results:

 

Blood work:

Urea Nitrogen is 28

Creatinine 2.6

BUN/Creatinine ratio 11

AST is high at 75

rest of blood work came in normal ranges

 

Urine:

negative for Protein in urine

negative for blood in urine

specific gravity urine 1.033

urine appearance cloudy

urine color amber

pH is a little high at 8

no crystals or casts except "few triple phosphate crystals"

everything else for urine came in normal ranges

 

I don't know whether to wait 5-6 months for a recheck or not. This vet grew up with a grey, and has consulted with Dr. Couto about a grey once, so he should know his stuff. I'm just bothered by first saying Harley's "kidney disease is probably from old age" and now saying the readings are probably normal for Harley and to wait that long to check.

 

I tend to be a worrier and I don't want to over do it with the tests, yet I want to do right by Harley too.

 

Does anyone know what the norm is for BUN/creatinine ratio for greys? Can anyone share their experience with kidney disease and test results? I don't know what to think about Harley now.

 

Thank you in advance for any info!

[MaryJane]

Did the vet recommend a lower percentage protein diet?

 

While the kidney values in the blood are higher than normal, I would probably consider it good that the protein is not yet being passed by the kidneys into the urine (I'm not a vet but was a microbiologist decades ago). But, I would probably go back and talk to the vet about getting your dog on a food that has a better quality of protein but less of it (also a food with less phosphates).

 

You might want to consider a home-made diet where you can control the amount and type of protein much more carefully than with commercial foods. I've had two "kidney diets" formulated for two of my greyhounds and personally have been very happy with the results. I've used Dr Remaillaird at Angel Memorial Hospital in Boston to set up the diets and I believe that she does phone consults also.

 

If you change the diet, you can do blood work after 3 months and see if it is helping.

 

Also, you might want to consider whether there was anything your dog could have gotten into that might have elevated kidney values. The first thing that comes to mind is whether you are using any treats or foods that have ingredients form China (think back to the "protein substitute a few years ago that poisoned dogs).

 

edited to add ... my first dog with the kidney issue had normal values a few months after being put on a kidney diet and he went on to a regular diet. My current dog has "good results" for his creatinne and spoecific gravity after being on a kidney diet a few months but he is still on a kidney diet and I plan on checking him again at the beginning of next year.

Edited September 30, 2009 by MaryJane

[MP_the4pack]

On the platelet clots........that could simply mean the platelets started to clot in the tube the blood was collected in.

 

 

[Batmom]

IIRC BUN:creatinine should be < 20 . Your pup's BUN and creatinine are a little elevated but really nothing to get excited about -- could be just greyhoundness (they run higher creatinines), could be normal for your pup. I would do as your vet suggests and recheck in 5-6 months to make sure those numbers aren't rising. Of course if you see some symptoms in the meantime, you'd want to recheck earlier.

 

I would quarrel with your vet about calling "kidney disease!" when so far there isn't any evidence of that.

 

If platelets clump, the platelet count isn't as accurate. Nothing to worry about there either. If there is a concern you can collect blood in a special tube and get a more accurate count. I tend to do that @ once a year for my pups but not everybody does. Some folks will say platelets should be higher than yours, but greyhound platelet counts are lower than other dogs' and usually not of concern unless they're down around 70,000-80,000.

[CaliforniaGreys]

What bothers me is that there is a world of difference between kidney disease and kidney failure.

And he mentioned due to old age? At 9? That doesn't make sense to me.

[AngelWhispers]

I'm getting to be an expert on reading bloodwork because of what I'm going thru with Warlock, and Harley's bloodwork looks OK. The creatinine/Bun is slightly above normal and that can be because it's normal for him, or stress from being at the vet, or his thyroid.

 

It's hard to get a good platelet count when they clump on the side of the tube, and as long as he's not bruising easily it shouldn't be anything to worry about.

 

Personally, I'd do a reject in a couple months unless he has symptoms you're concerned about.

 

Hatter is hypothyroid and when his levels are off he has seizures, similar to what you described, and his creatinine/bun ratio is elevated, and actually his have gotten higher than Harley's numbers, but he does not have kidney disease. I'd be more inclined to run a full thyroid panel to see if his meds need to be adjusted or if you've just recently started the meds, give them a little time to work and then recheck in 2 or 3 months. Of, course if he has another episode I'd definitely run a full thyroid panel sooner, than later.

 

Hope that helps a little and puts your mind at ease.

[Tallgreydogmom]

I have used this for my greyhounds with kidney disease. I believe Marilyn has used it also. I know it extended one of my dogs life for a year or more. Our vet was surprised on how it brought the values down.

 

http://www.healthypets.com/vetoquinol-azodyl.html

 

Hugs

[Burpdog]

How old is Harley? How are his teeth? Is he on any meds?

[Guest HappyHarleysMom]

Wow, thanks everyone - you're giving me great information that helps me out here! I really appreciate it. I think maybe the vet jumped the gun so to speak last week when he told me Harley has kidney disease and they were failing.

 

I'm looking into the diet issue. Mary Jane, I think I'll look for better higher protein food to feed less to Harley for now. Whenever I can walk again though, I'm going to cook for him. Is Dr. Remaillaird a nutritionist/vet? Also, I found some websites that say phospherus is more important than the protein with canine kidney disease--I'm not a nutrionist and I'll need to educate myself here. The vet never mentioned changing his diet. I already know about human kidney disease since it's in my family, so we know the things to stay away from. I just figured it's going to be similar for dogs. At least Harley has good blood pressure.

 

Harley had the whole thyroid panel testing but I didn't get those results faxed to me. He just started soloxine and I'll get him tested in 4-6 weeks to see how the drug is working. I'm going to settle down about the possible brain tumor right now. Sounds like his episode last week is thyroid related.

 

Boy that vet sure scared me. My regular vet wasn't in that day, and had to go with a different one. I'm not knocking him, but kidney disease/failure and cancer scared the stuffing out of me. I'm a worrier to begin with.

 

Thanks for the website TallGreyDogMom. I'm going to check into that too. I just glanced briefly, but it sounds good so I put it in my favorites to check on later. Anything that will help Harley.

 

Well, thanks again everyone. You've eased my mind a lot. DH and I joke that Har's our senior boy now, but deep down it's hard to face that he's getting older and developing problems. I was really realy scared last week. I feel better now. Of course Harley is acting just fine aside from sleeping a lot--he's got a great appetite--lol food and treats are a highlight of life in his mind!

 

[MaryJane]

I'm looking into the diet issue. Mary Jane, I think I'll look for better higher protein food to feed less to Harley for now. Whenever I can walk again though, I'm going to cook for him. Is Dr. Remaillaird a nutritionist/vet? Also, I found some websites that say phospherus is more important than the protein with canine kidney disease--I'm not a nutrionist and I'll need to educate myself here. The vet never mentioned changing his diet. I already know about human kidney disease since it's in my family, so we know the things to stay away from. I just figured it's going to be similar for dogs. At least Harley has good blood pressure.

 

Dr. Remaillaird specializes in nutrition and has been doing it for years. The web site for Angel nutrition is http://www.mspca.org/site/PageServer?pagen...rition_homepage

 

As I mentioned, she has formulated a few diets for my dogs (and not just the kidney). She also provides detailed information on vitamins and calcium levels that are required. In recent years she has been recommending a powdered supplement but, when asked she will reformulate the diet to include calcium carbonate (that can be picked up at the pharmacy but NOT the one that has Vitamin D) and regular over the counter vitamins as well as fish oil.

 

As you mentioned, phosphorous intake is important in managing kidney issues but, phosphorous levels in meat are high and thus, lowering phosphorus usually requires lowering protein (along with other items).

 

While others have suggested that you may want to wait before taking action, I respectfully might suggest the opposite and look into this immediately. The quicker that this is looked into and the cause identified as well as any necessary changes made to the diet will make a difference long term.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest HappyHarleysMom]

Mary Jane, thank you for the website address. Yes, I want to find out more about the kidney thing. First thing though, is switching his diet. I decided I am not waiting five to six months for a recheck like the vet recommended. I'll wait a few weeks after he's been on a better diet and then recheck the blood for kidney readings. Since he'll be rechecked for his thyroid in 4 to 6 weeks, I'll just get the whole bloodwork for senior dogs at the same time again.

 

I thought maybe phospherus was related somehow to protein--by way of meat. Thanks for explaining that to me. Makes perfect sense. I wish I could cook for Harley now, but I'm not up to it yet. So, it's looking into a good food for him. I don't have experience with K/d. I'll get it if it is my only choice. Are there other choices of good protein and low phospherus out there? I'll search the internet for them, but I'd appreciate suggestions here too!

 

Well, thanks once again everyone!

[Batmom]

Not sure why you would want to change his diet if he doesn't have signs of kidney disease?

[Guest HappyHarleysMom]

Not sure why you would want to change his diet if he doesn't have signs of kidney disease?

Since his creatinine and BUN were high in March, and they are even higher now in September, I think it would not hurt and may help if I give him food that his kidneys can better or more easily process. But I'm going to do some reading, and also check out the website Mary Jane gave to me. Ultimately, I'll ask my vet his opinion.

 

Since I've learned that older male dogs can get kidney disease but the decline can be slow, I figure I'll do anything I am able to do to help Harley.

[Guest mcsheltie]

I thought maybe phospherus was related somehow to protein--by way of meat. Thanks for explaining that to me. Makes perfect sense. I wish I could cook for Harley now, but I'm not up to it yet. So, it's looking into a good food for him. I don't have experience with K/d. I'll get it if it is my only choice. Are there other choices of good protein and low phospherus out there? I'll search the internet for them, but I'd appreciate suggestions here too!

 

I have had good results with Innova Senior on dogs with kidney problems. The Phos content is low and the quality of the protien is high. It is not a kidney diet, but it has worked.

 

I also HIGHLY recommend Monica Segal. She is one of the best. I can't say enough about her! She can work with you using commercial diets if you do not want to go the home cooked route.

[Guest HappyHarleysMom]

I thought maybe phospherus was related somehow to protein--by way of meat. Thanks for explaining that to me. Makes perfect sense. I wish I could cook for Harley now, but I'm not up to it yet. So, it's looking into a good food for him. I don't have experience with K/d. I'll get it if it is my only choice. Are there other choices of good protein and low phospherus out there? I'll search the internet for them, but I'd appreciate suggestions here too!

 

I have had good results with Innova Senior on dogs with kidney problems. The Phos content is low and the quality of the protien is high. It is not a kidney diet, but it has worked.

 

I also HIGHLY recommend Monica Segal. She is one of the best. I can't say enough about her! She can work with you using commercial diets if you do not want to go the home cooked route.

Thanks mcsheltie. I haven't heard of Monica Segal - I'll see if there is a website--it may help since I can't cook yet and I need to buy a good food that's easy on Harley's kidneys. I never heard of Innova either ---I must be out of touch!

 

I can't wait until I can cook though. I used to make more homemade treats for him but it's hard to do from a wheelchair. I'm attempting it this weekend though. Got DH to buy all the ingredients.

[Batmom]

Not sure why you would want to change his diet if he doesn't have signs of kidney disease?

Since his creatinine and BUN were high in March, and they are even higher now in September, I think it would not hurt and may help if I give him food that his kidneys can better or more easily process. But I'm going to do some reading, and also check out the website Mary Jane gave to me. Ultimately, I'll ask my vet his opinion.

 

Since I've learned that older male dogs can get kidney disease but the decline can be slow, I figure I'll do anything I am able to do to help Harley.

 

Do please ask your vet.

 

Your first post doesn't indicate what the normal ranges are for the bloodwork. If they're anything like mine, your dog isn't showing signs of kidney disease. He might be showing signs of vet office stress and varying hydration levels between the prior blood test and this one.

 

Reduced protein diets aren't really good for dogs unless they genuinely need them.

[Guest HappyHarleysMom]

Not sure why you would want to change his diet if he doesn't have signs of kidney disease?

Since his creatinine and BUN were high in March, and they are even higher now in September, I think it would not hurt and may help if I give him food that his kidneys can better or more easily process. But I'm going to do some reading, and also check out the website Mary Jane gave to me. Ultimately, I'll ask my vet his opinion.

 

Since I've learned that older male dogs can get kidney disease but the decline can be slow, I figure I'll do anything I am able to do to help Harley.

 

Do please ask your vet.

 

Your first post doesn't indicate what the normal ranges are for the bloodwork. If they're anything like mine, your dog isn't showing signs of kidney disease. He might be showing signs of vet office stress and varying hydration levels between the prior blood test and this one.

 

Reduced protein diets aren't really good for dogs unless they genuinely need them.

 

 

Yes, I am going to ask the vet. But, I am not looking for reduced protein--just better protein and reduced phosphorus. He eats Pedigree which has a lot of phosphorus. There is a website that explains diets for kidney disease from very early stage to end stage: http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html

 

After reading the website, I understand that K/d is not for Harley, as it's for advanced kidney disease. I am going to ask the vet about the dog foods suggested on this website that have amounts of proteins and phosphorus prescribed for the BUN and creatinine levels that match Harley's--which are the very early stages.

 

The thing that concerns the vet is that these readings were already high and now are higher. Thanks Batmom, I appreciate your information. I'm not rushing into anything until I understand what I am dealing with here. I'm really glad I am able to ask everyone here. I'd love it if Harley's readings are what you suggested, Batmom!