Safe Sedative

[Guest BasilMom]

Looking for some advice regarding a safe sedative to use on my 14 month old grey. I have made various attempts to clip Cole's nails but he has a very severe case of fear aggression when it comes to this. I had my Vet and the staff try and they were not able to clip them either. One of the Vets gave me ACE but I am hesitant to use it on him. I do not think that this is the appropriate drug for Greyhounds. Does anyone have any suggestions?? Behavior modification does not work here. He is not food motivated so treats etc are unsuccessful. I've tried everything. As soon as he sees the clippers he hides. He has seen my other greys get their nails done but he still has an extreme fear.Any suggestions are appreciated.

[RobinM]

A sedative is relatively long acting for just cutting nails.

 

Beau is IMPOSSIBLE and he has been refused by our old vet and 2 groomers. However, our current vet is able to do it by not lifting his foot very high, just high enough to do the clip.

 

See if your vet will work with you, rather than sedating him for hours for a 20 second "procedure".

[Guest IrskasMom]

 

 

Really have no Advice . I am sure some People with more Knowledge ( like Batmom and Burpdog and RobinM) will chime

in .

 

[Guest BasilMom]

Unfortunatly Cole will not let anyone touch him. Seven adults tried at the Vet to restrain him and they were unsuccesful. I agree about sedating him. I was wondering if Valium would be advisable just to get him in a state of relaxation enough for me to handle him. I don't want him to be so stressed out to the point where he looks like he is in a panic. I'm not sure of his history of why he may be like this. He was a puppy that I took as a return at five months. I see a difference in him compared to my other grey that I adopted at 9 weeks. I made sure that I handled her a lot. She is a cuddle bug. He is just getting to the point that he will let himself be hugged and lay down near enough to be handled.

[Batmom]

Can you handle his feet when you don't have the clippers?

[Guest BasilMom]

Can you handle his feet when you don't have the clippers?

 

 

Yes I can handle his feet now. I've been able to build this trust. One of the first things I noticed when he was returned to me was that he would sleep on his feet. Not sure if this was a habit or he was protecting them. I was able to has his Mom in my company and she too wasn't a big fan of having her feet handled. I know that this is not uncommon for dogs. He just takes it to a higher level.

[Batmom]

Well, then behavior mod will work. Just gotta go slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow and figure out what to do about his nails in the meantime.

 

Might be worth trying a nail file to start, working up to a small fine wood rasp. Nail file won't produce much result if he has dark tough nails, but it'll get him used to the process. Once he is used to it and comfortable with it, then you can use the wood rasp to actually file them down. And once that procedure is easy, you can try moving on to a dremel. Do not ever bring out the nail clippers during one of these sessions, and keep your initial sessions short, as in @ 30 seconds. "I'm going to file your nails," pick up one foot, wiggle a toe or two, put foot down, "Good boy!" and done. After a couple days of that and no resistance, "I'm going to file your nails," pick up one foot, swipe the file lightly over a nail or two, put foot down, "Good boy!" and done. Et cetera. One short session a day, at least 5 days a week so it gets to be b.o.r.i.n.g routine.

 

In the meantime, well, that is a puzzle. Might ask your vet about Domitor/Antisedan to knock him out and get the nails properly clipped for now. It's a short-acting anaesthetic/reversal agent combo, safe for greys if your vet is used to using it. Not something you want to do often but it would buy you some time to work the behavioral angle while still keeping his feet healthy. Ace is safe for greys although IIRC you want to start with a lower dose than for other dogs; it might help and might not.

 

ETA: With a decent wood rasp, you can do the nails of a large, dark-toenailed dog in @ 15-20 minutes.

[Guest BasilMom]

Well, then behavior mod will work. Just gotta go slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow and figure out what to do about his nails in the meantime.

 

Might be worth trying a nail file to start, working up to a small fine wood rasp. Nail file won't produce much result if he has dark tough nails, but it'll get him used to the process. Once he is used to it and comfortable with it, then you can use the wood rasp to actually file them down. And once that procedure is easy, you can try moving on to a dremel. Do not ever bring out the nail clippers during one of these sessions, and keep your initial sessions short, as in @ 30 seconds. "I'm going to file your nails," pick up one foot, wiggle a toe or two, put foot down, "Good boy!" and done. After a couple days of that and no resistance, "I'm going to file your nails," pick up one foot, swipe the file lightly over a nail or two, put foot down, "Good boy!" and done. Et cetera. One short session a day, at least 5 days a week so it gets to be b.o.r.i.n.g routine.

 

In the meantime, well, that is a puzzle. Might ask your vet about Domitor/Antisedan to knock him out and get the nails properly clipped for now. It's a short-acting anaesthetic/reversal agent combo, safe for greys if your vet is used to using it. Not something you want to do often but it would buy you some time to work the behavioral angle while still keeping his feet healthy. Ace is safe for greys although IIRC you want to start with a lower dose than for other dogs; it might help and might not.

 

ETA: With a decent wood rasp, you can do the nails of a large, dark-toenailed dog in @ 15-20 minutes.

 

 

Thank you for your suggestions. I've tried this method. He is not having any part of you coming near his tooties with anything in your hand. Not even a a T Bone steak.LOL It's really something else. I've been able to touch his body with the clipper. I've let him sniff it,touch it etc. But I'm not able to pick up his toes with anything in my hand. I've tried using the muzzle and he was ready to bite my hand off. It's really not the clippers themselves but the procedure of handling him in a situation. The Vet wasn't even able to examine him. He accepts affection handling but can tell the difference of what is being done to him. I will speak to the Vet's again regarding a short acting agent that I can use at home. Taking him to the office for a procedure seems to escalate his anxiety.

[Batmom]

You can't use Domitor/Antisedan at home -- it's a serious drug, has to be done at vet. If he can't have his nails clipped while awake, somebody's going to have to do it while he's out, or his feet will be a mess. Nails too long can really do a job on the toes.

 

Re behavior modification: If you can handle his feet, you can do this. But he is sensitized to the clippers, the muzzling, etc. so you need to be sly. Spend at least a week just approaching, telling him what you're going to do, and then simply handling the feet. Then at least a week approaching, taking a disposable nailfile out of your pocket and setting it next to him, and then handling the feet without making any move to actually use the nail file. Another week approaching, taking nail file out of pocket, setting it next to him, handling the feet, picking up the nail file once and just touching it to the tip of one nail once, resume handling the feet. Et cetera. This is what I mean by slow. Any resistance that can't be laughed off -- don't comfort, laugh! -- you need to go back to the previous step for a few days.

 

If you don't feel comfortable doing all this without a muzzle on him, then add a week or two to the beginning of the process where you are not even handling the feet but simply telling the dog what you are going to do ("I'm going to cut your nails now") and putting the muzzle (with a nice blob of peanutbutter in the nose) on the dog. Leave it on for peanutbutter removal plus 5 minutes, tell him he's a good boy, and take it off again.

 

I have yet to find a dog who can't learn to have his/her nails done calmly in *some* fashion (altho there are probably some that exist), but you have to go really really really really slow. Plan on it taking at least 3 months and probably 6 before you can actually sit down and do his nails. That means you'll need an interim maintenance procedure, such as anaesthesia at the vet's. It helps if your interim maintenance procedure has no resemblance at all to the desensitization/training procedure you're using at home.

 

A lot of dogs don't like clippers. They don't like the sound, or they've been quicked, and they've learned to associate those clippers with Really Bad Things. Clippers ==> panic reaction. Don't use them.

 

ETA: Note that for each step of the procedure, you're going to tell the dog what you're going to do: "I'm going to clip your nails now" or "Let's do nails!" or "Spa day!" or whatever. Same words, same tone of voice every time. Seems trivial -- even stupid, when all you're actually doing is putting a peanutbutter muzzle on the dog -- but this is a huge help. The dog learns what happens after you say those words, and if you're slow and careful, all that happens is something that doesn't hurt, doesn't make him frightened, earns him "Good boy!" and a tummy rub or whatever .... Dog gets nicely conditioned to "Spa day!" = something dog is perfectly contented and relaxed to do, not frightening at all.

[Guest Chasems]

I have an extremely sensitive drama queen that I had problems with. The Dremel was a life saver! I had to take baby, baby steps to get her used to it. She would scream (not an exaggeration) if I so much as touched her foot initially. This was because she was infested with ticks when I got her and I had to get them all off before bringing her into the house. I ended up having to blindfold and muzzle her and just go ahead and do it. The neighbors thought I was murdering the poor dear. I took her to a greyhound-only training class (she was a star pupil!) and found a treat that she literally drooled for - freeze dried liver. So, at home I used the freeze dried liver only for training or super reward things - like letting me touch her toes or her ears.

 

At first I just sat the Dremel out on a low table for a few days so she go used to seeing it. Then I sat down in the middle of floor and Dremeled my own toenails while she watched. I gave her a liver treat just for watching so she would associate it with good things. I did that a few times. Then we increased just step by step: touching her foot, holding it (also did shake hands for fun!), turned on Dremel and picked up her foot, eventually touched a toenail with the Dremel, etc. - each time big gushy 'good girl' and a freeze dried liver treat (they are little bites). To this day, she gets a liver treat after we finish each foot. I have never given these treats for anything else other than doing her nails or ears. She is now my easiest hound to do nails on - actually puts a foot out and into my hand! We do nails while lying down relaxing on her bed.

 

This has worked for me and for two other friends with difficult greys. Perhaps you could try the steps leading up to it and borrow someone's Dremel instead of buying one in case it doesn't work for you. I had purhcased a regular cordless 2-speed Dremel from the tool section on sale at Target, but I have since seen the same tool selling in pet grooming stores/web sites for as little as $20. You use the round sandpaper attachment - don't use the stone as it gets too hot for a dog. Using it on yourself lets you get the hang of using it, as well as how it will feel to the dog.

 

Melinda

[Guest Hoolyghans]

I'm very interested in this thread.

I've been wanting to post one of my own but not sure how to write it.

 

We have Cole's littermate, Spike. Over the last two months, he has started FREAKING OUT if we touch his feet or lower leg in any manner, back feet worse than front. Serious Cujo time. I can be petting him while he's all calm and relaxed, if my hand drifts down his leg, not even making it to his foot, he freaks. I think it's interesting that his brother and his mom both have foot issues.

 

We've had him since he was 7 weeks old and I have made sure to handle his feet regularly in hopes to avoid this exact problem. This is a new behavior for him.

 

He has not had an injury or nail trim anywhere near that time frame. He has white nails and being a very active runner & digger, they stay quite short without trimming. The only possible event I can think of is the first week in March (which does match up time-wise) he had his annual check up and the vet did the heartworm blood draw from the big vein right above his hock. Stoic is not in his vocabulary. The vet got a demonstration of the GSOD for that.

 

We have been working on desensitization using special treats. I like all the suggestions so far, especially the PB in the muzzle. We haven't been using the muzzle so far but I think I'm pushing my luck on that front. Now he seems to anticipate a desensitization session every time I sit down next to him (even if I'm just comeing to snuggle) and he's visibly stressed about it.

 

We've made a little progress in that he doesn't freak out *every* time but it's far from comfortable for him and his reaction is far from comfortable for me.

I can touch his front feet about 60% of the time without a reaction but his back feet & legs only 20% at best.

 

My question is, what is the best way to handle it when he does snap? Either when we are in a "session" or when I'm just petting him and he *thinks* I might go after a foot? Right now he's getting the VoG (and he usually slinks off to his crate) I don't want to ignore the growl/snap but I also don't want to stress him out more, which I do think is happening.

 

I was wondering if I should stop all attempts for about a week to let him relax again then start up? Should we keep pressing forward with no breaks?

 

All around he's a sweet, goofy, laid back, good natured boy. This has taken me totally by surprise.

 

 

 

 

[Guest Chasems]

I hadn't seen the other posts before I replied. One reason I chose a Dremel versus a file or rasp is that it is quick and doesn't require as much pressure on the nail. However, the disadvantage is that you have to get them used to the sound. However, my hounds see the Dremel come out along with the tub of liver treats (I buy the expensive pure liver things online, but have since learned you can make them yourself if you invest in a dehydrater), they are excited about the treats and associate this with getting "pretty toes".

 

The trainer that we worked with that used these liver treats had us start with holding them between the fingers where the dog can smell (and/or drool!), but not necessarily get to eat it right away, while you worked on a behavior. She started with "look at me", for example, and you held the treat in front of your nose to get eye contact. Then she moved to watching the hand to get the dog used to hand signals. Dogs are naturally very sensitive to body language - it is one of their natural instincts. One of my favorite stories she would tell clients is about the dog owner who thought his dog was very stupid and wouldn't always come when called. She found the dog was paying more attention to his hands - sometimes he used a hand in a beckoning fashion, and that is what the dog related to and came. When he "forgot" to use that hand gesture, the dog paid no attention.

 

I've a lot to learn about dog behavior, but I do find it fascinating.

 

Melinda

[Guest Energy11]

GOLDIE is IMPOSSIBLE!!! I used to be able to cut and even paint her nails, and I never "quicked" her. All of a sudden, she started trying to bite and goes NUTS when you try to cut her nails. She doesn't even like her feet handled! We've tried muzzling, food discraction, EVERYTHING, even pre-sedating with Valium ... NOPE! This girl has to be sedated in the vet's office for her nail clipping, and I HATE it! She does NOT do well with Domitor/Antisedan, so we used a protocol from OSU last time, which was better. I HATE doing this, too, as she is getting older. Forget the Dremel, too. ...

 

I might try 5-10 mg of Valium on the puppy, and see if that helps. I HOPE you don't have another Goldie on your hands! Good Luck! D

[Guest Chasems]

Thank you for your suggestions. I've tried this method. He is not having any part of you coming near his tooties with anything in your hand. Not even a a T Bone steak.LOL It's really something else. I've been able to touch his body with the clipper. I've let him sniff it,touch it etc. But I'm not able to pick up his toes with anything in my hand. I've tried using the muzzle and he was ready to bite my hand off. It's really not the clippers themselves but the procedure of handling him in a situation. The Vet wasn't even able to examine him. He accepts affection handling but can tell the difference of what is being done to him. I will speak to the Vet's again regarding a short acting agent that I can use at home. Taking him to the office for a procedure seems to escalate his anxiety.

 

This sounds quite scary, and sounds like the poor pup must have had a traumatic experience with his feet. You might consider talking to a dog trainer due to the snapping issue if it makes you fearful because they will sense that. But do try letting your dog watch you do your own toenails with whatever you're going to use. Most dogs are very observant and smart about relating these things. I did the same thing with my own ears when trying to get Amber to let me clean her ears - felt a little silly, but it seems to work on the trust issue in our case. I've also noticed some of the pet catalogues selling an herbal mixture or suggesting a DAP before a vet visit to calm the dog - haven't heard of anyone using these things or if they help, but maye someone here has?

 

Melinda

[BrGreyhndz]

Not sure if anyone mentioned it but it can work to get them through the initial nail cutting fears- either lift them completely off the ground (requires a second person with some strength) or lift the hind end up. Use a kennel muzzle. I used to do nail at our reunion (sadly the reunion now conflicts with a big horse show I ride in) and managed to cut all but one dog's nails over the years- probably several hundred dogs. These methods worked when just putting them on the table didn't.

 

Best of luck- I wouldn't sedate for nails. you can also try a dremel to see if he will tolerate that.

[Guest IrskasMom]

 

 

Just for what it's worth. We can't touch Morty's front Leg either , he starts whimpering. But if I am stern ask him to show

me his Footsies ,he lets me. The other Day I took him to a Groomer I know , and she put him on a Table that she can

lower and pump up ,so it is on her Eyelevel. Without any Whimpering and Hesitation she clipped his Nails and filed them.

To add , he did not like for her to touch his Backlegs but with me holding him ,he managed.

 

[Anne]

I use benedryl. It's great, safe and cheap. I only have 2 dogs who freak (and oddly enough, it's NOT my spook who doesn't care about getting nails trimmed!) when I cut nails.

My vet also told me that I could use a small does of ACE if absolutely necessary, but I've never had to use it.

I also agree that sometimes strangers can cut nails that I can't. I believe if someone is nervous about doing it, the dog knows/senses this and freaks too.

 

 

[Burpdog]

Lifting them if they don't freak with all 4 feet off the ground many times works.

 

Some of you remember Mahogany, one of my brood moms. She went to the vet to have her nails done. First dog in 35 years I couldn't do. The breeder said she had always been like that. She had a good life before coming to me so I know she was not mistreated. I did not feel comfortable sedating her at home. I tried the usual generic type drugs benedryl, Calm Spirit and valium to no avail.

 

Have you tried a peanut butter muzzle? Put the muzzle on with pb and do one nail. Start out slow.

[Guest BasilMom]

I'm very interested in this thread.

I've been wanting to post one of my own but not sure how to write it.

 

We have Cole's littermate, Spike. Over the last two months, he has started FREAKING OUT if we touch his feet or lower leg in any manner, back feet worse than front. Serious Cujo time. I can be petting him while he's all calm and relaxed, if my hand drifts down his leg, not even making it to his foot, he freaks. I think it's interesting that his brother and his mom both have foot issues.

 

We've had him since he was 7 weeks old and I have made sure to handle his feet regularly in hopes to avoid this exact problem. This is a new behavior for him.

 

He has not had an injury or nail trim anywhere near that time frame. He has white nails and being a very active runner & digger, they stay quite short without trimming. The only possible event I can think of is the first week in March (which does match up time-wise) he had his annual check up and the vet did the heartworm blood draw from the big vein right above his hock. Stoic is not in his vocabulary. The vet got a demonstration of the GSOD for that.

 

We have been working on desensitization using special treats. I like all the suggestions so far, especially the PB in the muzzle. We haven't been using the muzzle so far but I think I'm pushing my luck on that front. Now he seems to anticipate a desensitization session every time I sit down next to him (even if I'm just comeing to snuggle) and he's visibly stressed about it.

 

We've made a little progress in that he doesn't freak out *every* time but it's far from comfortable for him and his reaction is far from comfortable for me.

I can touch his front feet about 60% of the time without a reaction but his back feet & legs only 20% at best.

 

My question is, what is the best way to handle it when he does snap? Either when we are in a "session" or when I'm just petting him and he *thinks* I might go after a foot? Right now he's getting the VoG (and he usually slinks off to his crate) I don't want to ignore the growl/snap but I also don't want to stress him out more, which I do think is happening.

 

I was wondering if I should stop all attempts for about a week to let him relax again then start up? Should we keep pressing forward with no breaks?

 

All around he's a sweet, goofy, laid back, good natured boy. This has taken me totally by surprise.

 

I think Holly what we are seeing is more than not liking to be groomed. I had the same thing with Cole trying to get the bandage off his leg after his blood draw. They are still talking about Cole's visit to the Vet TWO months ago

I've been working on this for at least six months. I've tried it all. I tried doing nails outside where he would not feel trapped it did not make a difference. I wonder if the other littermates behave the same. Stephanie showed him the emery board and he ran under the dining room table. I will continue to try all the good suggestions. I understand your concern about the snapping and I feel the same way. I still do a strong corrective voice for this behavior and I know he understands that it is wrong. From what I've seen of Spike I'm sure it is out of fear just as Cole. Once the situation changes and the fear subsides he is back to his sweet self. From my experience the more I pressed the worse it became. This makes for interesting stuff..........

 

[FountainLady]

Before I would have to subject my dog to a life time of being Sedated to do his or her nails, I would enlist the help of a TTouch & TTEAM practitioner who specializes in Tellington-Jones TTouch therapy. It works wonders for behavioral problems like these, and produces lifetime results. There are no practitioners in New Jersey, but quite a few in New York that can help you.

 

NY NEW YORK

 

NY Lucie Brown Courtland Manor

CA-P 914-737-8999 Fax 203-356-6608

Deskoflucie@yahoo.com

 

NY Mary Bruce New York

CA-P1 877-MiTails mary@mindfultails.com

www.mitails.com

 

NY Wendy Fast Dansville

CA-P3 585-335-3439 Cell: 585-305-2678 ttouch22@earthlink.net

www.heartseasettouch.com

 

NY Charlene Garrison Elma

CA-P1 Cell: 716-870-5369 sunnyside414@yahoo.com

 

NY Charlene Hibbs Rochester

CA-P1 585-247-4689 mshibbs@aol.com

 

NY Sue Jaeckle Spencerport

CA-PiT Day: 585-781-7910 Eve: 585-349-3297 fjaeckle@rochester.rr.com

 

NY Peggy Marks New York

CA-P1 877-MiTails peggy@mindfultails.com

www.mindfultails.com

 

NY Monica Miller New York

CA-P1 212-749-9598 monica@thepetcoach.com

www.thepetcoach.com

 

NY Bobbi Pollack Hawthorne

CA-P1 914-769-1446 bobbisholisticcare@verizon.net

www.bobbisholisticcare.com

 

NY Margaret Seely New York

CA-P1 212-281-9106 margaretlynnseely@hotmail.com

 

NY Frances Smith Dansville

CA-P3 585-335-3439 Cell: 585-305-2582 ttouch22@earthlink.net

www.heartseasettouch.com

 

NY Diana Wells Sharon Springs

CA-P1 518-284-2651 animalpaths@usadatanet.net