Talk To Me About Vaccinations

[Guest SoulsMom]

I haven't talked to my vet yet, but Soul is coming up on his wellness check. With all his recent tummy issues and the fact that he has discoid lupus, I'm not feeling good about getting him vaccinated for everything (except rabies).

 

However, Soul is a 'public figure' so to speak, working meet and greets three times per month. I'd hate for him to have to stop doing that. Yet, the store where we work only requires that he has his rabies up to date. Also keep in mind that he's never been biopsied to dx the DL. It's quite obvious that he has it, and my vet tries to avoid invasive procedures unless totally necessary. When I first went to him about the lupus we agreed that if it improved with supplements and diet then that would be confirmation, and we could skip the biopsy.

 

Another thought is that since we still don't know what is going on with his GI issues, it could be that the lupus is becoming systemic. However, all recent and extensive bloodwork came back good.

 

So, yay or nay? And if nay, what do I need to do to protect him otherwise?

[Guest greytbookert]

If it were me, I'd only vaccinate for rabies... but that is me. We have an understanding with our vet that we will vaccinate for rabies and titer for the others, if necessary. However, you know that my crew is is on the older side, not a youngin' like Soul Perhaps, your vet would be open to titering versus vaccination. It sounds as though he is reasonable enough to listen to your concerns and consider that as an option.

 

 

[RobinM]

I haven't talked to my vet yet, but Soul is coming up on his wellness check. With all his recent tummy issues and the fact that he has discoid lupus, I'm not feeling good about getting him vaccinated for everything (except rabies).

 

However, Soul is a 'public figure' so to speak, working meet and greets three times per month. I'd hate for him to have to stop doing that. Yet, the store where we work only requires that he has his rabies up to date. Also keep in mind that he's never been biopsied to dx the DL. It's quite obvious that he has it, and my vet tries to avoid invasive procedures unless totally necessary. When I first went to him about the lupus we agreed that if it improved with supplements and diet then that would be confirmation, and we could skip the biopsy.

 

Another thought is that since we still don't know what is going on with his GI issues, it could be that the lupus is becoming systemic. However, all recent and extensive bloodwork came back good.

 

So, yay or nay? And if nay, what do I need to do to protect him otherwise?

 

Amber- forgive if I sound like a ignoromous. I don't know about DL nor do I want to learn about it first hand!!!! but you implied that the DL is undercontrol. If so, why would you feel it could be getting systemic?

 

Re bx: We agnoized for weeks and drove our vet NUTs with phone calls, emails, articles, GT advice, you name it. So, I understand about not wanting to do invassive. After trying everything we could try, we had no more options left. Now, I wish I did it 2 weeks ago.

 

As far as the vaccinations go, go with just the rabies if that is all you need to do M&G.

[Guest SoulsMom]

Discoid Lupus is mostly cosmetic and only slightly problematic. It affects the skin cells on the nose and also causes the nails to be thick, with long quicks, and sometimes brittle. Basically, it's his skin cells attacking themselves. It's managed through diet and supplements, and a tetracycline cream.

 

Ten percent of Discoid Lupus cases can turn into systemic lupus and the GI tract is one area for it to happen. Since we don't know what is causing the GI bleeding, him becoming one of the ten percent hasn't been ruled out yet (even though his blood tests looked good).

 

The DL was under control until he had to go on the I/D diet and stop all supplements for the GI bleeding. Now his nose has been flaring up again and bleeding (probably due to the cold weather, too) It's going to be a long, tedious road to find out what will work for both of his "issues".

 

So, I shouldn't worry about him 'picking up' something if he's not vaccinated? Deb, you're right my vet is very open to working with me on stuff . . . .

 

ETA: to biopsy the DL it is punch biopsy on the nose, that would need to be done when he is under. It is very painful and takes a long time to heal. Soul has all of the outward symptoms so we saw no need to put him through that.

Edited January 22, 2009 by SoulsMom

[Guest EmbersDad]

i am a firm believer in titers too. id go with the rabies and a titer. he may be just fine.

[CaliforniaGreys]

All I do is rabies, it's all I've ever done

[duncan41]

Rabies and titer. Is DL autoimmune? If so, if it were my dog, I would definitely only do rabies.

[MaryJane]

I agree with the others that maybe you just want to do the rabies but, maybe the question should also be whether he should continue to do "meet n greets" regadless of whether he has the vaccines. Please consider that there might be too much of a risk taking a dog with a "compromised system" and having him exposed to all those other dogs and unfortunately, you don't know what the other dogs may have. Maybe it's time for him to retire.

 

I say this as kindly as I can because, I also had to make a difficult decision to stop bringing one of my dogs to "meet n greets".

 

 

[Tallgreydogmom]

I would get the 3 year rabies shot only.

[greyhndz]

Amber, I'd only give rabies, and if there were any way of getting a waiver on that, I'd pursue it. Vaccinations (especially modified live virus) can trigger an exaggerated immune response, not only resulting in a flare of a previously diagnosed autoimmune disorder (such as DL), but also overstimulate the immune system, precipitating an autoimmune disease. And consider Soul's possible dx of IBD -- I'd be concerned about vaccines inducing a flare of that as well.

 

Iggy Lexi has immune-mediated polyarthritis, which developed shortly after receiving both her distemper and rabies vaccinations. Besides having to be on immunosuppressants for the rest of her life, the vet has directed that she receive no vaccinations whatsoever. Luckily, in NH, the town will accept a letter from my vet stating that her medical condition prohibits her being vaccinated for rabies. Lexi's litterbrother, who has autoimmune thrombocytopenia, has the same exemption.

 

It's worth discussing with your vet to see what her recommendation is.

[ahicks51]

From a link posted to the greyhound email list a couple of days ago:

 

The rabies vaccine waiver

 

[tbhounds]

I would not vaccinate for anything including rabies. Have your vet write an exemption letter.

[Guest MAXNAV]

Amber,

If I were you, I'd only give the rabies vac to him, but I would also be concerned about other dogs contaminating him at M&Gs. Also, since I know first hand about Lupus (mom & sister had it), has the vet ever recommended a sunblock? Do they even make a sunblock for dogs? I'm not sure that would even help with his poor nose, but it might be worth asking your vet. My m&s had to be sure to always use sunscreen, every day, whether it was sunny or not. They actually had systemic lupus, but still had to be careful with uv rays.

Doreen

 

[Guest SoulsMom]

Amber,

If I were you, I'd only give the rabies vac to him, but I would also be concerned about other dogs contaminating him at M&Gs. Also, since I know first hand about Lupus (mom & sister had it), has the vet ever recommended a sunblock? Do they even make a sunblock for dogs? I'm not sure that would even help with his poor nose, but it might be worth asking your vet. My m&s had to be sure to always use sunscreen, every day, whether it was sunny or not. They actually had systemic lupus, but still had to be careful with uv rays.

Doreen

 

YUP, he wears sunblock. Baby sunscreen. Well, at least he did until the GI issues. At that time we cut out everything and are adding things back in one at a time to try and identify the triggers.

 

I should also add that his ultrasound showed only a slight thickening of the wall of the small intestines, probably due to the Big D he had. It didn't show anything to indicate the lupus was becoming systemic. All of his innards looked normal.

 

 

 

[Guest MAXNAV]

Amber,

If I were you, I'd only give the rabies vac to him, but I would also be concerned about other dogs contaminating him at M&Gs. Also, since I know first hand about Lupus (mom & sister had it), has the vet ever recommended a sunblock? Do they even make a sunblock for dogs? I'm not sure that would even help with his poor nose, but it might be worth asking your vet. My m&s had to be sure to always use sunscreen, every day, whether it was sunny or not. They actually had systemic lupus, but still had to be careful with uv rays.

Doreen

 

YUP, he wears sunblock. Baby sunscreen. Well, at least he did until the GI issues. At that time we cut out everything and are adding things back in one at a time to try and identify the triggers.

 

I should also add that his ultrasound showed only a slight thickening of the wall of the small intestines, probably due to the Big D he had. It didn't show anything to indicate the lupus was becoming systemic. All of his innards looked normal.

 

Baby sunscreen. I'll have to remember that, as there are many white dogs in rescues locally that sometimes have problems with the sun. Thanks! Glad to hear that the lupus is not becoming systemic.

Have a good day!

 

[Guest SoulsMom]

Amber, I'd only give rabies, and if there were any way of getting a waiver on that, I'd pursue it. Vaccinations (especially modified live virus) can trigger an exaggerated immune response, not only resulting in a flare of a previously diagnosed autoimmune disorder (such as DL), but also overstimulate the immune system, precipitating an autoimmune disease. And consider Soul's possible dx of IBD -- I'd be concerned about vaccines inducing a flare of that as well.

 

Iggy Lexi has immune-mediated polyarthritis, which developed shortly after receiving both her distemper and rabies vaccinations. Besides having to be on immunosuppressants for the rest of her life, the vet has directed that she receive no vaccinations whatsoever. Luckily, in NH, the town will accept a letter from my vet stating that her medical condition prohibits her being vaccinated for rabies. Lexi's litterbrother, who has autoimmune thrombocytopenia, has the same exemption.

 

It's worth discussing with your vet to see what her recommendation is.

 

Thank you for this post Jordan. It does concern me for forgo the rabies though . . . .is there a titer to check for this? I'm just thinking of rabid squirrels, skunks, bats, or raccoons that could get into the yard. I have 22 acres of forest directly behind my house.

 

[sweetdogs]

It does concern me for forgo the rabies though . . . .is there a titer to check for this? I'm just thinking of rabid squirrels, skunks, bats, or raccoons that could get into the yard. I have 22 acres of forest directly behind my house.

There is a titer for it. I know that there is a challenge study going on right now to show that the rabies vaccine is effective for 7 years. I think it's been proven before, just not to the standards required by veterinary medicine. Since Soul's GI problems are still not quite resolved, I wouldn't vaccinate him now. Get a waiver from your vet that will also prove that he's been vaccinated multiple times in the past for rabies. It's unlikely that he would be unprotected.

 

I would still take him to M&G's because he enjoys them so much. That will support his immune system.

[Guest MorganKonaAlex]

What about kennel cough? That's one I do for my dogs if they are going to be in social situations.

[Guest oldNELLIE]

What about kennel cough? That's one I do for my dogs if they are going to be in social situations.

 

I am under the impression that the kennel cough vac. is like the flu shot in that a dog can very easily get it anyway. They require it at kennels to cut down the risk, but it is no guarantee.

 

[Guest SoulsMom]

It does concern me for forgo the rabies though . . . .is there a titer to check for this? I'm just thinking of rabid squirrels, skunks, bats, or raccoons that could get into the yard. I have 22 acres of forest directly behind my house.

There is a titer for it. I know that there is a challenge study going on right now to show that the rabies vaccine is effective for 7 years. I think it's been proven before, just not to the standards required by veterinary medicine. Since Soul's GI problems are still not quite resolved, I wouldn't vaccinate him now. Get a waiver from your vet that will also prove that he's been vaccinated multiple times in the past for rabies. It's unlikely that he would be unprotected.

 

I would still take him to M&G's because he enjoys them so much. That will support his immune system.

 

Thanks! We really want to continue with the M&G's. He loves it, and he's such a good ambassadog . . . .I'll discuss it with my vet and see what he thinks about continuing to work them. From what I understand, he's not immune system compromised, but more like it's in overdrive . . . kinda like my allergies

Edited January 22, 2009 by SoulsMom

[greyhndz]

From what I understand, he's not immune system compromised, but more like it's in overdrive . . . kinda like my allergies

 

That's correct. Unless he were on immunosuppressants (such as prednisone) or immunomodulators (cyclosporine, leflumonide, cytoxan, etc.) or had another underlying disease compromising his immune system, having DL does not put him at any additional risk of infection.

 

Aaron, that was actually an excellent article, and so important for people to know. The majority of folks don't realize that vaccinations can have serious repercussions, and are often unnecessary and way over-administered -- and that they have the right to decline.

 

Amber, as far as keeping Soul protected from rabies when you live in a rural area, one option (assuming your town would issue a waiver for medical reasons) would be to titre him annually to monitor his immunity. If it's falling below the "immune" range, you could opt to vaccinate at that time.

 

That said, were he to bite someone (fat chance, I know ) or be exposed to a rabid (or possibly rabid) animal, all bets are off. There are protocols the ACO has to follow issued by the Dept. of Public Health, and if there's no proof of vaccination, he might have to be quarantined, vaccinated, handcuffed and sent to Bridgewater state prison. (Just kidding about that last part, but wonder how he'd look in an orange jumpsuit?)

[ahicks51]

From what I understand, he's not immune system compromised, but more like it's in overdrive . . . kinda like my allergies

 

That's correct. Unless he were on immunosuppressants (such as prednisone) or immunomodulators (cyclosporine, leflumonide, cytoxan, etc.) or had another underlying disease compromising his immune system, having DL does not put him at any additional risk of infection.

 

There is also an interesting phenomenon where if you overdrive an already overactive immune system, sometimes it tilts back to normal. It's a little like giving stimulants to kids who are already hyper, producing a state of relative calm (at the expense of all kinds of other stuff).

 

I have no idea how this might work in the canine, but one emerging therapy for some types of autoimmune disorders- including lupus- is LDN, or "low dose naltrexone." The drug is remarkably safe, and its primary expense lies in how it must be compounded. Never been used in dogs, best as I know, but there are probably toxicology data in the canine from its safety assessment days.

[greysmom]

I know Soul enjoys his M&Gs so much, but I would be worried about what he could get from strange dogs too.

 

I would definitely discuss all the options and questions with our vet - it sounds like you have a good relationship with a good vet, so use that! What's the worst case scenario if you don't vaccinate? What is it if you do? And if that happens, what can you live with happening?

 

Good luck!

greysmom

[Guest SoulsMom]

From a link posted to the greyhound email list a couple of days ago:

 

The rabies vaccine waiver

 

That's a great article, thanks!

[GeorgeofNE]

What about kennel cough? That's one I do for my dogs if they are going to be in social situations.

 

I am under the impression that the kennel cough vac. is like the flu shot in that a dog can very easily get it anyway. They require it at kennels to cut down the risk, but it is no guarantee.

 

 

That's correct, and kennel cough is easily cured. However, most actual kennels require it.