3.5 Yr. Old With Incontinence?

[Guest MZH]

I had a choice of DES and PPA (pill form, not chewable) for Sparkle. I had heard horror stories about DES so I went with the PPA when she was 7 or 8. Sparkle resisted me giving it to her but I won. When the chewable form (Proin) came out I switched to that, hoping she would like that better. She didn't. She looked like she had a permanent headache. She had her stroke at 12 years 11 months. She was in apparenly excellent health, was very agile and could run quite well still. If it weren't for the PPA I think she's be here at age 16 now.

 

I was able to reduce her prescribed dose to 25% for a while. When it didn't work, I'd up it some. That worked for 4 or 5 years.

 

I'd go for DES if we ever need it again -- but would try milk first. <G>

 

It's nice to know that Pepperjack was able to stop the DES completely over time. Cool!

 

Marcia

[Guest teachckg]

I had a choice of DES and PPA (pill form, not chewable) for Sparkle. I had heard horror stories about DES so I went with the PPA when she was 7 or 8. Sparkle resisted me giving it to her but I won. When the chewable form (Proin) came out I switched to that, hoping she would like that better. She didn't. She looked like she had a permanent headache. She had her stroke at 12 years 11 months. She was in apparenly excellent health, was very agile and could run quite well still. If it weren't for the PPA I think she's be here at age 16 now.

 

I was able to reduce her prescribed dose to 25% for a while. When it didn't work, I'd up it some. That worked for 4 or 5 years.

 

I'd go for DES if we ever need it again -- but would try milk first. <G>

 

It's nice to know that Pepperjack was able to stop the DES completely over time. Cool!

 

Marcia

 

You had mentioned milk before... do you know how much and when?

 

You had also mentioned a protruding vulva. The Vet mentioned she looked larger than normal but never went further with this. What would a protruding vulva mean?

 

Thanks!

[Guest vahoundlover]

We lost Dolly to a toxic reaction to PPA, 6wks shy of her 6th birthday. Never again will one of our dogs take it. Our holistic vet has success with acupuncture and herbs, I wish I had known this 2 yrs ago.

 

I've never heard of milk helping...I'd love to hear more about that.

[Guest MZH]

I had a choice of DES and PPA (pill form, not chewable) for Sparkle. I had heard horror stories about DES so I went with the PPA when she was 7 or 8. Sparkle resisted me giving it to her but I won. When the chewable form (Proin) came out I switched to that, hoping she would like that better. She didn't. She looked like she had a permanent headache. She had her stroke at 12 years 11 months. She was in apparenly excellent health, was very agile and could run quite well still. If it weren't for the PPA I think she's be here at age 16 now.

 

I was able to reduce her prescribed dose to 25% for a while. When it didn't work, I'd up it some. That worked for 4 or 5 years.

 

I'd go for DES if we ever need it again -- but would try milk first. <G>

 

It's nice to know that Pepperjack was able to stop the DES completely over time. Cool!

 

Marcia

 

You had mentioned milk before... do you know how much and when?

 

You had also mentioned a protruding vulva. The Vet mentioned she looked larger than normal but never went further with this. What would a protruding vulva mean?

 

Thanks!

 

I've been looking for the post from the person who gave her spay incontinent old dog the milk and can't find it. I did find lots of posts and papers on why to NOT give milk b/c it causes incontinence! If it were my dog, I'd still try a small amount of milk-- maybe a half cup -- to see what happens. If a small amount didn't work I'd try a little more. If it doesn't help or gets worse, I'd go back to the drawing board. A little milk on a trial and error basis won't hurt her unless she's very allergic to it.

 

The protruding vulva is pretty common but it gets urine scald b/c urine collects there. Sometimes it gets smaller over time and the problem disappears. One of our girls had it all her life and we needed to wipe her when her urine irritated the area. We applied Panalog to the vulva and a 50/50 water/vinegar mix. (I don't remember which order we did that in, but it was one followed by the other.) The vinegar mix seemed to burn but it did clear up her irritation. It was an endless cycle though. An operation can take care of that so I'd opt for that if we got another dog with this problem.

 

Marcia

 

 

[Guest teachckg]

 

 

I've been looking for the post from the person who gave her spay incontinent old dog the milk and can't find it. I did find lots of posts and papers on why to NOT give milk b/c it causes incontinence! If it were my dog, I'd still try a small amount of milk-- maybe a half cup -- to see what happens. If a small amount didn't work I'd try a little more. If it doesn't help or gets worse, I'd go back to the drawing board. A little milk on a trial and error basis won't hurt her unless she's very allergic to it.

 

The protruding vulva is pretty common but it gets urine scald b/c urine collects there. Sometimes it gets smaller over time and the problem disappears. One of our girls had it all her life and we needed to wipe her when her urine irritated the area. We applied Panalog to the vulva and a 50/50 water/vinegar mix. (I don't remember which order we did that in, but it was one followed by the other.) The vinegar mix seemed to burn but it did clear up her irritation. It was an endless cycle though. An operation can take care of that so I'd opt for that if we got another dog with this problem.

 

Marcia

 

Thanks so much. I am going to give the Genesis herbal pills a try and then see what happens, but I am writing down all of these other options. I really apprdciate all of this information.

[Guest TippyTy]

Teachckg, thanks for all the updates! We also have a 3.5 y.o. with spay incontinence (very mild). So, I am definitely keeping an eye on this thread.

[sweetdogs]

I've been looking for the post from the person who gave her spay incontinent old dog the milk and can't find it.

It was on the greyhound-L (post #'s 175728 [PJ Ham], 175732 & 175788 specifically). The poster gave her 13 yo leaky girl @ 1 cup of 1% milk on her kibble because she needed to gain some weight & liked milk. She noticed that the leaking stopped but didn't connect the 2 until she ran out of milk & the leaking resumed. Another poster mentioned that it might have worked because of naturally occurring estrogen & prolactin in the milk. Certainly sounds like it's worth a try.

[Stoney]

Beans (my 7yo boy) had a similar problem. The vet cultured the urine - nothing was found. Since he was only leaking a little and only while completely relaxed/asleep, she figures it's incontinence and prescribed PPA. He's been on it about 3 weeks now - but at a SIGNIFICANTLY reduced rate. My vet prescribed 50 - 100mg per day, but Dr Bill said to give 12.5-25mg so we started there. He's getting only 12.5mg/day and it seems to have stopped the dribbles. Better yet is that he's not having any weird side effects - he's still the same goofy dog he's always been.

[Guest MZH]

I've been looking for the post from the person who gave her spay incontinent old dog the milk and can't find it.

It was on the greyhound-L (post #'s 175728 [PJ Ham], 175732 & 175788 specifically). The poster gave her 13 yo leaky girl @ 1 cup of 1% milk on her kibble because she needed to gain some weight & liked milk. She noticed that the leaking stopped but didn't connect the 2 until she ran out of milk & the leaking resumed. Another poster mentioned that it might have worked because of naturally occurring estrogen & prolactin in the milk. Certainly sounds like it's worth a try.

 

Thank you! I have such trouble finding posts from the greyhound-list; I really appreciate your finding it!

 

Marcia

[Guest MZH]

Beans (my 7yo boy) had a similar problem. The vet cultured the urine - nothing was found. Since he was only leaking a little and only while completely relaxed/asleep, she figures it's incontinence and prescribed PPA. He's been on it about 3 weeks now - but at a SIGNIFICANTLY reduced rate. My vet prescribed 50 - 100mg per day, but Dr Bill said to give 12.5-25mg so we started there. He's getting only 12.5mg/day and it seems to have stopped the dribbles. Better yet is that he's not having any weird side effects - he's still the same goofy dog he's always been.

 

Yep, the 12.5 mg dose once or twice a day, depending on leakage, is what eventually worked for Sparkle until she had her fatal hemorrhagic stroke. Please, if Beans looks like he has a headache, consider stopping it and see how he looks after going off it.

 

I would love it if some of you with leaking dogs who aren't taking PPA or anything else would try the milk and tell us if it worked or not!

 

3.5 is so young to have incontinence. I have to wonder if it's a physical problem, not a hormonal one. For example, we have an intersexed puppy who is dripping after peeing or while moving around. (This is the opposite of what y'all have; he's dry when he's sleeping.) I'm not suggesting anyone has an intersexed dog, but there could be physical reasons. Yes, we'll get Perry fixed as soon as we can -- if it's fixable.

 

Marcia

 

[Guest teachckg]

I would love it if some of you with leaking dogs who aren't taking PPA or anything else would try the milk and tell us if it worked or not!

 

 

Marcia

 

 

I might try the milk before I try the herbal route. After the night of constant throwing up and knowing it was caused by something I gave her... I am hesitant to do anything for awhile. All of a sudden urine does not seem so bad.

[Batmom]

As noted earlier, what worked for us was a semi-elimination diet. A true elimination diet would involve only One Thing. I chose a few things: Beef, eggshell (for the calcium), sweet potato, pureed green peas, and white potato (in the form of baked potato chips for her treats). That is all, and I do mean all, Zema ate for months. No salt, no spices, no commercial treats, no extras. Within a day or two, leaking, extra drinking, fussing -- all stopped.

[Stoney]

Please, if Beans looks like he has a headache, consider stopping it and see how he looks after going off it.

 

I would love it if some of you with leaking dogs who aren't taking PPA or anything else would try the milk and tell us if it worked or not!

 

Uh, don't mean to sound dumb, but how do you know when a dog has a headache? What should we look for?

 

I don't know if the milk would work for Beans since he's male and the estrogen/prolactin is a treatment aimed specifically at female dogs.

Edited August 6, 2008 by thatgirl2478

[Guest MZH]

Please, if Beans looks like he has a headache, consider stopping it and see how he looks after going off it.

 

I would love it if some of you with leaking dogs who aren't taking PPA or anything else would try the milk and tell us if it worked or not!

 

Uh, don't mean to sound dumb, but how do you know when a dog has a headache? What should we look for?

 

I don't know if the milk would work for Beans since he's male and the estrogen/prolactin is a treatment aimed specifically at female dogs.

 

According to one of our vets, the eyes are not opened as usual; they are sort of squinty. As for the milk, I have no idea about the estrogen/prolactin for males with the problem, but I do know dogs (and people) have a little of all sorts of hormones. If he were mine, I'd give it a try since milk is a pretty benign substance.

 

Marcia in SC

[Guest TippyTy]

UPDATE

 

We've been trying the milk route with our 3.5 yo w/ incontinence issues. Not helping. In fact, the leaking seems to be getting worse (i.e. more frequent). I'm going to try decreasing the milk to see if anything improves.

 

Sorry we don't have better news.

 

Next up... grain-free diet.

[Guest MZH]

Here's a good paper on causes of urinary incontinence; it ain't always spaying that causes incontinence.

 

http://courses.vetmed.wsu.edu/vm552/urogenital/micturit.htm

 

We have a 6 month old assumed female hermaphrodite greyhound pup who leaks or dribbles just before and after urinating -- not sure which it is, despite fancy diagnostics -- so she's on bethanechol for the time being to help her get rid of excess urine in the bladder that might be causing her form of incontinence. The bethanechol is actually mentioned in the paper. It's also known as urecholine.

 

I guess I should try milk on the pup. I forgot about it! Did you try the Genesis?

 

Anyway, I hope the paper helps.

 

Marcia in SC

[greyhead]

Our 4-yr-old male developed leaking. Negative for all the culturing/testing, but mildly elevated kidney values (i.e., BUN and creatinine). A first-catch urine sample showed a reduction in his ability to concentrate urine. (I always forget the name of that test, but it's an important indicator.) He had been drinking a lot of water and peeing a lot in addition to leaking. So he appears to be in the early stage of kidney disease.

 

I'm wondering if your pup would also be drinking more if there were more available when you're working. I mention that because nobody else has, and it's something to consider.

 

Some people respond to this by reducing the protein content of the diet. Newer research indicates that that's a mistake in the earliest stages of the problem. Interestingly, this dog has never done well with grain in his food. So we switched him to Wellness Core, Low-Fat version, and he does great. (No excessive drinking/peeing and no leaking.) We also add Missing Link to his food, as omega-3's have been shown to improve kidney function. Wellness Core has a pretty high protein level, at 30% or so, so doing this is kind of against conventional wisdom. But as I said, conventional wisdom appears to have been incorrect, at least for some animals.

 

Just offering this in support of your no-grain or low-grain idea and also to indicate another line of exploration if it turns out that you need another one. Please keep up the updates, and good luck!

 

Mary

 

 

 

 

[Guest TippyTy]

I guess I should try milk on the pup. I forgot about it! Did you try the Genesis?

 

Nope. I think the OP (teachckg) was going to try the Genesis. Hopefully, teachckg will update soon on the herbal progress...

 

If the grain-free diet doesn't work, then we'll give Genesis a whirl, too.

 

[Guest teachckg]

Sorry for not posting in awhile. I am a teacher and have been busy with the start of the year.

 

Tried the Genesis and it did not do anything.... I so wished it would have. I changed Vets-- really did not feel like my first vet communicated well. The new vet took new urine tests, blood, etc. And found nothing. We did x-rays and found nothing. She talked me into trying the Proin again. Last time we gave her 50 mg, so this time we started with 1/2 of the pill. This actually worked-- she has not leaked since the day we have given it to her. We did try to cut it back and she started leaking again. She did pant a bit when we started but does not anymore. I actually think she is more active and plays more now. We are watching her blood/urine and I will try to lower the amount of Proin again. I am still very hesitant but hope I am making the right decison.

 

You all are a wealth of information and I actually am going to take some time right now and read through the posts in a bit more detail!!