3.5 Yr. Old With Incontinence?

[Guest teachckg]

Recently my girl Kate has been leaking. When she naps sometimes she gets up to find a wet spot behind. She has been doing this off and on for the last three to four weeks. It never happens during the night but usually in the evening, sometimes after exercise. We have been taking her out every two hours and she urinates normally. After it happens she is obviously upset-- she licks the spot where the urine has been left behind and often cleans herself.

 

We took her to the Vet when it first happened and they detected some bacteria so we put her on meds for a Urinary Tract Infection. Although the bacteria disappeared, she is still leaking. The Vet is suggesting putting her on PPA, but I am concerned. She is young to be on it. The Vet noticed a little inflammation so we are putting her on 5 days of meds to see if the inflammation goes down and the leaking stops.

 

I am concerned... I mentioned a natural approach to my vet and she really was not informative. Any insight you can give me about what it could be or how we could treat it would be great.

 

Is it normal for a dog this young to have urinary incontinence?

Edited July 19, 2008 by teachckg

[galgrey]

If your vet has ruled out other medical issues and feels it's "spay incontinence" I understand your hesitance to put her on Proin or PPA at such a young age. I know lots of people give it to their dogs and I'm not being critical, but I typically try to exhaust natural approaches before using prescription drugs for my dogs (or myself). It's just my personal preference.

 

Years ago my male greyhound (age 5) suddenly started leaking urine in his sleep. My vet (who's a complementary/alternative practitioner) determined that he didn't have a UTI, but noticed that his lower back seemed tender to the touch. He did a chiropractic adjustment after I told him that Keno had gone to play group and run like a wild man the day or so before. Worked like a charm! It cropped up another time several years later after he had run and played extra hard and it responded immediately to the adjustment.

 

I do remember Dr. Watkins saying something about the nerve that controls the bladder sphincter in male dogs getting pinched sometimes .... so I'm not sure if this would apply to a female. Is there an alternative/complimentary veterinary practice near you that you could take her to for a second opinion?

 

There are herbal combinations that some people have used for spay incontinence with success. Here's a link to one called Genesis that has good reviews, but I haven't ever used it myself.

 

I hope you get this resolved soon. Keep us posted.

Edited July 19, 2008 by galgrey

[NancyB]

My Kassie was on PPA for 4 years and is now off of it, she is 8. My Ruby has been on it for almost a year and she will be 8 in Sept. Sometimes it can cause high blood pressure but they were both checked for it and they were fine. She could be inflamed there because of the leaking. They can be wet there pretty much all of the time between the leaking and licking they do. Good luck

[Guest argolola]

Prayers for your pretty girl.

[Batmom]

Two questions:

 

1 - How much does she drink, and when does she drink it?

2 - Did the vet culture the urine, or just regular quickie urine test?

 

And a story:

 

Zema had (so far, fingers crossed) a similar problem. In the late afternoon / early evening, she would drink pretty much her whole day's quota, and then she would leak over the next few hours. Usually when wide awake. And not realize that she had to go out, or not want to go out. She would fuss a lot though.

 

Sometimes when this happened, she did in fact have a UTI. Other times, there was no UTI we could detect. She was drinking a big slug of water in late afternoon, fussing, drinking more, leaking and/or having to go out every hour for 3-4 hours. Driving us all mad. Including herself, because I guess she didn't feel right but also didn't feel like she had to go out, so she didn't want to ......

 

After trying pretty much everything in the book and doing a big wad of medical tests, I took her off commercial food and started a NO-salt, extremely limited homecooked diet. Et voila. Problem stopped. Vet suggested we try one of the low-salt prescription kibbles. We did. Problem began again. Back on the limited home diet. Problem stopped.

 

I kept her on the limited homeprepped diet for @ 6 months. Took a deep breath and switched back to kibble @ 2.5 months ago. In that time, she's had one UTI and one leakage incident. If she gets another UTI anytime soon or has more leaks, it'll be back on the home diet for good.

 

I don't know why the home diet worked. Maybe gave her little system a chance to recover from an irritation that's gone now. Maybe there is something in commercial food -- salt, vitamins, who knows -- that sets her up for irritation. But it did work. She quit slurping water in the afternoon/evening, quit leaking, quit fussing, quit having to go out a million times.

 

I guess the moral of the story is, sometimes -- especially when considering an unusual pattern, as when your dog has symptoms but only at very specific times/circumstances -- it's worth thinking outside the box.

 

Best luck with your pup.

[Guest teachckg]

There are herbal combinations that some people have used for spay incontinence with success. Here's a link to one called Genesis that has good reviews, but I haven't ever used it myself.

 

I hope you get this resolved soon. Keep us posted.

 

Thanks-- I am going to keep this website so I can give it a try if it comes to this!!

 

Two questions:

 

1 - How much does she drink, and when does she drink it?

2 - Did the vet culture the urine, or just regular quickie urine test?

 

The water question is a good one... I do not think she drinks an abnormal amount. But I am going to really be aware of this over the next few days.

 

The vet did not do a culture. If bacteria shows up again in urine sample just taken (results due monday)-- I am going to ask for one. My adoption group suggested that also!

 

And interesting story-- I am definitely going to look into a diet change if needed!

[GreyPoopon]

I have two leakers: Minnie and Cora.

 

Minnie has spay incontinence. It showed up when she was just 3 and was being treated with maximum doses of prednisone to try to control her inflammatory bowel disease. She often woke up in a huge puddle, usually (not always) in mid-morning. Since she was in so much trouble already, I didn't want to add another drug, so I protected the furniture, and, during the worst period, had her wear home-made diapers. Now that she's off pred, she sometimes spots. The furniture is still protected, and the covers are washed every couple of weeks. When I notice a spot, I spray it with enzyme cleaner.

 

Cora has a problem similar to Zema's: late afternoon binge drinking, and occasional substantial leaks. The drinking/leaking link is not as strong, and I have not yet determined whether it is related to food. In the meantime, we're treating her with Propalin, which has controlled her leaks.

 

Since Kate has just had a UTI, I'd be inclined to suspect that bacteria or irritation are still present, even if nothing shows up on tests.

 

If you conclude she is incontinent, there are now several alternatives to PPA. Several are mentioned in a recent thread here.

[Guest LindsaySF]

Since Kate has just had a UTI, I'd be inclined to suspect that bacteria or irritation are still present, even if nothing shows up on tests.

I agree.

 

My cat is prone to UTI's and urinary crystals. He is on a special diet for the crystals and he gets special cranberry extract cat treats (to reduce urine pH and hopefully prevent future UTI's). Maybe they make a similar treat or supplement for dogs?

[Cheryl2]

Could be a very low level UTI, they can be hard to detect. What antibiotic were you using? We've had a lot of luck with an older drug, SMZ-TMP, in the kennel for hard to clear up UTIs. Sometimes it works better than some of the newer drugs.

[fourofem]

My two girls have the same problem. Stella's started early on and looking back on it, I think I caused it by leaving her crated for too long while I was at work. She was my first and my adoption group seemed to think she'd be alright for the time I was at work. After many, many tests with varying results, she was placed on a potassium supplement (RenaKare) and has been on it since. I did a lot of research and found an herbalist in New Zealand who is very familiar with racing greyhounds and after emailing back and forth, he came up with an incontinence mix for her. She gets 10 drops twice a day and it has helped...hasn't totally cured (everything she sleeps on is still covered) but it's much, much better. Lizzie occasionally leaks...I've had her tested but nothing showed up. I've got her on the drops now. We'll see. You mentioned Proin....that made Stel violently sick. I've never seen a dog throw up as much as she did after one dose. May be just Stel but I thought I'd add that.

[cmc333]

Bladder stones can cause leaking. An Xray would show stones. They can operate to remove the stones.

--Connie--

[Guest chaoran22]

my boy dog dribbled - this was a few months ago when he was almost 5 years old. it used to happen when he was sleeping, little drips would just leak out of his penis (i saw it happen once when he was roaching while sleeping). my vet tested for crystals, etc. and then put him on this Berry Balance (made by Solid Gold). I don't know if it worked because it gave him crazy diarrhea so we stopped it and decided to just take him out a ton of times whenever we could because since there was no medical reason found in the tests. and that has helped. he rarely if ever dribbles now.

 

so i don't know if you can take her out more than you already are, but if you've gotten her tested for crystals, etc. and there's no medical reason to be found, maybe just taking her out a million times during the day will help. i figured, if there was not much pee in his bladder, then there's nothing to drip out... if not, you might ask about berry balance or another berry supplement (i think there are a few different brands). my vet said it cured about 90% of the dogs she sees with this problem without the need for more pharmaceutical type drugs (the berry stuff is derived from cranberries, etc.) and your dog might tolerate it better than my dog and in any case, it's just berry extracts so it can't hurt to try (not cheap but better than the heavier drugs).

[Guest teachckg]

Well the urine analysis came back normal. The vet said she does seem to be a little red back there so she suggested to try to clean her daily and see what happens and my vet is going to talk with another vet about some other options. She mentioned an ultrasound possibly??? I mentioned the "herbal" approach--even brought in a print out on one some mentioned off the internet-- she did not really think it was worth trying?? She still is leaking in the evenings about every other day. I just worry for her and I know she is sick of having to lay only on the covered part of the couch (just a little spoiled

[Guest teachckg]

My Kassie was on PPA for 4 years and is now off of it, she is 8. My Ruby has been on it for almost a year and she will be 8 in Sept. Sometimes it can cause high blood pressure but they were both checked for it and they were fine. She could be inflamed there because of the leaking. They can be wet there pretty much all of the time between the leaking and licking they do. Good luck

 

 

Oh-- And I just realized you are the NancyB I got Kate's 4th of July Collar from-- Thanks-- I love it and will be ordering more as the holidays come around

[gracegirl]

This sounds just like Grace's problem, but Grace was only having accidents every few weeks...not every few days. She is now taking Resources Canine Incontinence herbal pills with each meal. We've had an accident or two since starting them back in March. Not a big deal though, I just keep the couch covered with a thick comforter and wash it when needed. I'd rather do laundry than pump unnecessary drugs into her. I'd not hesitate to try PPA if they become more frequent though. Good luck, keep us posted!

[Guest TippyTy]

She is now taking Resources Canine Incontinence herbal pills with each meal.

 

Quick question. Does estrogen supplementation cause cancer in dogs? Or is that just for humans?

 

(Only asking b/c the description for the Genesis Resources Canine Incontinence Formula says it "provides natural estrogens".)

 

[Guest MZH]

Try giving Kate some milk. It sounds weird but I read it worked for an older dog. Don't remember where I read it but it was recently. When the dog stopped getting milk the leaking started up again; when she got the milk again the leaking stopped. It's worth a try before resorting to PPA.

 

Our girl died from a hemorrhagic stroke three years ago. PPA was the likely cause, especially since she had been refusing to take even the chewable form. I had to pill her. She knew it was making her sick. I'll never use it again. I'm still apologizing to her.

 

Four is awfully young for incontinence, that's for sure, but strange things can happen.

 

Marcia in SC

 

PS. Does she have a protruding vulva? That's a whole other ball game if so!

 

Marcia in SC

[Guest teachckg]

PS. Does she have a protruding vulva? That's a whole other ball game if so!

 

 

It is interesting that you say that because the vet is looking into that. She said that it was looking a little swollen possibly? She said she would look into it and let me know... what would that mean?

[Guest teachckg]

UPDATE:

 

So we had tried a variety of things from cleaning her daily to being very diligent with bathroom outtings. I have realized it only happens in the evening, so I thought maybe it really is a sphincter problem and decided to go ahead with the PPA (my VET was fairly persistent). Well...

 

Never again. After one pill she threw up all night and she is still not herself. I am really upset with myself because deep down I knew not to do this. So we are going to try the herbal route. I appreciate the information you have all given and I am going to go the natural way. The VET suggested trying DES (i think that was it) but have heard horrible things about this and after last night -- NO WAY.

[stlgrey]

Ali developed leaking as a result of a UTI which turned into crystals. The UTI and crystals resolved but she still leaks. I tried corn silk with no luck and decided to put her on the Prion. She is 9 and seems to be doing just fine on it. She gets one 50mg tab a day.

 

My mom's airdale had spay incontinence and was started on Prion at age 3. She recently passed away at age 10 from something totally different, but she did fine on the medicine.

[Guest crazy4greys]

We had a foster dog that a UTI for months. After injections and different meds, it finally went away.

[Guest teachckg]

Ali developed leaking as a result of a UTI which turned into crystals. The UTI and crystals resolved but she still leaks. I tried corn silk with no luck and decided to put her on the Prion. She is 9 and seems to be doing just fine on it. She gets one 50mg tab a day.

 

My mom's airdale had spay incontinence and was started on Prion at age 3. She recently passed away at age 10 from something totally different, but she did fine on the medicine.

 

 

Huh-- I wonder why my vet did not suggest Prion. Is it a drug you get from the Vet or elsewhere?

[Pepperjack]

Zuni had sleep accidents even before she was age 3. I took her to a very savy vet who said it was either spay incontinence or it was happening as a result of her cycle being supressed while racing. She was given DES (synthetic estrogen), which was effective in dealing with the problem, however I was giving as much as a pill every 3 days. After about 8 or 9 months they really decreasing and I slowly eliminated the pills. So i'm pretty sure it was the second option. She has no accidents anymore.

 

Do a search on here for spay incontinence, there are some people who know what they are talking about who portray DES as very safe. It's given at a much, much lower dose than to humans. Also, everything i've read states that the human risk with the DES is in the offspring of people who took the drug. Wouldn't that not be an issue with a spayed dog? Maybe that's a stupid queston...

[Batmom]

Ali developed leaking as a result of a UTI which turned into crystals. The UTI and crystals resolved but she still leaks. I tried corn silk with no luck and decided to put her on the Prion. She is 9 and seems to be doing just fine on it. She gets one 50mg tab a day.

 

My mom's airdale had spay incontinence and was started on Prion at age 3. She recently passed away at age 10 from something totally different, but she did fine on the medicine.

 

 

Huh-- I wonder why my vet did not suggest Prion. Is it a drug you get from the Vet or elsewhere?

 

Proin is the same thing as PPA -- it's just a brand name.

 

IIRC, DES can have some unfortunate side effects too, tho possibly less than PPA. Some dogs get along very well with these drugs and some do not.

[Tallgreydogmom]

Have you tried acupuncture? I took Cricket for acupuncture for her back legs. The vet also treated for incontinence since she was 15.