Advice Needed About Bite!

[Guest jhev1]

Help! Canaan, our new dog, just attacked Spartacus, our first dog. They were in a spare room with their kongs. We think that Canaan went to get Spartacus's kong, and Spartacus didn't give it up fast enough. Canaan is the alpha of the two, he has growled at Spartacus several times in the 3 weeks that we have had him. Spartacus just backs down, that's why I think that Canaan was the aggressor in this case.

 

Before I hear it from everyone, I know that with high value treats this can happen. However, Canaan is not like this with his food. In fact, at times they eat in the same room. Canaan knows, from us telling him "not yours" that Spartacus's food and water are not for him. We leave Spartacus water all day, Canaan gets water when we give it to him. He won't even drink water from Spartacus bowl. Just this morning, my wife was cleaning the kitchen when Canaan indicated he wanted some water. His bowl setup was not in the usual spot, it was closer to where Spartacus eats and drinks. He wouldn't drink until it was moved to the usual spot. My point is he doesn't seem possive of his food, until now.

 

Could he do this to a person next? His knog fell off his dog bed, I picked it up while he was still licking it and not a peep. I placed it back on the bed and he started licking it while I was still holding it.

 

Anyway, here are a couple of pics of the result. There is more of the wound under the coat above, it's hard to see in the pic. I didn't want to spread it out and cause any pain. Would you guys go the vet with this? Our usual vet is closed, so it would be the e-vet. They both have an appointment on Monday to see the vet, can it wait until then? Will that be too late for stiches? Can this be stitched?

 

Thanks for the help.

 

John

 

 

 

[MP_the4pack]

While large enough to get a stitch or two, it is also small enough not to need it. If you wait until Monday it will be too late to stitch. Keep it clean and get antibiotics from the vet. He should be fine.

 

As far as aggression. As long as the humans are alpha and remain alpha, you shouldn't have any trouble with Canaan. Keep an eye on him for any hints that he may challenge your dominance. But if it is still easy to control him, make him wait for his food. Sit. Wait until you go out the door first. He will probably always see you as pack leader.

 

As far as Spartacus, if this were an actual attack I think the damage would be a lot worse. Looks like the result of a snarkfest. They may still need to work things out. While you are not around, it may be a good idea to not have favorite treats outs. But, when you are around, let them have the kongs. You'll be there to referee if things get out of hand. However they really need to decide where they sit with each other.

 

Good luck.

 

 

[silverfish]

What is the reason that Spartacus has free access to water but Canaan does not?

 

If you treat one dog differently to the other when it comes to basic needs being met, you are setting yourself up for trouble - and especially so if you're withholding stuff from the one who is the stronger character.

[TheFullHouse]

In my opinion, that injury can heal by itself without stitches. I'd just clean it up really well and put some antibiotic ointment on it.

 

As far as the behavior, I have to agree with Silverfish, both dogs should be treated equally. One should not have basic needs like water with held while the other has free access. As far as the kongs, these are things that shouldn't be given without you being there to supervise unless the pups are crated. If you have to get up and leave the room, take the kongs with you. More arguments are started over toys and treats.

 

edited to add: I have to agree, this injury looks like the result of an "argument" rather than a full blown attack. I can guarantee you that if one attacked the other, the damage would have been so much worse!

Edited March 29, 2008 by JillysFullHouse

[Xan]

I'm here just thirding what Silverfish and JillysFullHouse say.

I have a pup whom we've worked hard to get to be non-aggressive with our other male, and we've made great progress, but I would never put out high-value, long-lasting treats without me being present, or even where they could feel each other's gaze. Not worth it, at all. However, water is a free-for-all, all day, and is never an issue. It's not high-value (despite being vitally important!)

 

As for the owey, keep it clean and keep an eye on it, I'd say.

 

Good luck with your new boy! Deep breath, move forward.

[CaliforniaGreys]

What is the reason that Spartacus has free access to water but Canaan does not?

 

If you treat one dog differently to the other when it comes to basic needs being met, you are setting yourself up for trouble - and especially so if you're withholding stuff from the one who is the stronger character.

Ditto, just my 2 cents

[Guest lotsagreys4me]

I agree that the rip can be healed with keeping it clean and getting some antibiotics. As for the 'fighting' over the kongs, I think that is a normal thing. We humans have to be responsible and not leave the dogs alone with treats, chews or food filled kongs. My greys all seem to get along just fine but they don't get treats unless I am there until they finish them off. I wouldn't run the risk of giving them treats or even their food bowls unless I am there to monitor behavior and be ready to intervene if something were to happen.

[Guest SkinnyLegDogLover]

Saying this nicely, but I would work on Canaan's growling at Spartacus. "Several times in 3 weeks" is not acceptable. Don't forget, YOU are the alpha!

 

eta: I hope Spartacus is feeling better soon.

Edited March 29, 2008 by SkinnyLegDogLover

[Guest jhev1]

Thanks for all the replys. We will keep it clean and monitor the situation. As far as the antibiotics, do you think they can wait until the regular vet on Monday? I am not too fond of the e-vet and if I can avoid them, I will. If need be though, I will go.

 

To everyone asking about the water, I think Canaan is part lab because if we put a full bowl in front of him, he won't stop until it is gone, which is why we just give him water when he goes to the water bowl, then just as much as we feel comfortable with him drinking it all. I've tried leaving a bowl there, then telling him when he is halfway through, that's enough and distract him with a toy, but he just goes back to the bowl for more. We pretty much follow him, so whenever he goes to the water bowl and checks to see if there is any there, he gets some, just not a full bowls worth. Spartacus, on the other hand, does not drink it all. We even leave a full bowl for Spartacus when we are not home, he does not drink much when we are gone. If we tried that with Canaan, we'd be ankle deep in pee.

 

Finally, about the growling at Spartacus. It has been at least a week or more since he has done that. Whenever he did, I was right there to correct it. I don't know if he was just seeing how far he could go, but believe me, I am on top of that one. There is no doubt about the pecking order in this house, myself, my wife, Canaan, Spartacus. Wish it was Spartacus, Canaan, but that's life.

 

Lesson learned, no more high value treats unsupervised. Glad I got away relative unscathed this time.

 

Thanks again to all who replied.

[Guest luckydog]

Sounds like Canaan needs to have some lab (ha, no pun intended) work done for excessive thirst. Could be several things, including kidney disease or diabetes.

[patricia]

Thanks for all the replys. We will keep it clean and monitor the situation. As far as the antibiotics, do you think they can wait until the regular vet on Monday? I am not too fond of the e-vet and if I can avoid them, I will. If need be though, I will go.

 

To everyone asking about the water, I think Canaan is part lab because if we put a full bowl in front of him, he won't stop until it is gone, which is why we just give him water when he goes to the water bowl, then just as much as we feel comfortable with him drinking it all. I've tried leaving a bowl there, then telling him when he is halfway through, that's enough and distract him with a toy, but he just goes back to the bowl for more. We pretty much follow him, so whenever he goes to the water bowl and checks to see if there is any there, he gets some, just not a full bowls worth. Spartacus, on the other hand, does not drink it all. We even leave a full bowl for Spartacus when we are not home, he does not drink much when we are gone. If we tried that with Canaan, we'd be ankle deep in pee.

 

Finally, about the growling at Spartacus. It has been at least a week or more since he has done that. Whenever he did, I was right there to correct it. I don't know if he was just seeing how far he could go, but believe me, I am on top of that one. There is no doubt about the pecking order in this house, myself, my wife, Canaan, Spartacus. Wish it was Spartacus, Canaan, but that's life.

 

Lesson learned, no more high value treats unsupervised. Glad I got away relative unscathed this time.

 

Thanks again to all who replied.

I am so sorry...hugs to all. One thing is for sure...we learn as we go along. I do have one question...is the vet aware of Canaan's drinking patterns?

[silverfish]

Sounds like Canaan needs to have some lab (ha, no pun intended) work done for excessive thirst. Could be several things, including kidney disease or diabetes.

 

Agreed. It may be nothing, but excessive drinking can be a sign of health problems.

 

I had a dog who had psychogenic polydipsia - fancy words for 'drinks for the sake of it'. In his case, it was anxiety and the DAP plug in helped. Sometimes it will be a minor health issue like an uncomfortable stomach which prompts it, but sometimes - as others have said - it can be something major like kidney failure, diabetes, or Cushing's Disease.

 

As for the spat, yes, supervise when they have high value treats. Also, make sure you don't try to favour Spartacus over Canaan if Canaan is 'top dog' between them. If you do, you risk the spats escalating into fights with serious aggression and serious wounds.

[Guest jhev1]

They are both going to the bet on Monday, I'll bring up the drinking then. I think it is more a case of him just getting what he can while he can. He eats his food very fast, treats fast too. He has only been off the track since 3/1.

 

Of course, I have to deal with all this while getting dinner ready, friends coming over at 6, so much to do still.

Edited March 29, 2008 by jhev1

[Guest paulamariez]

We learned our lesson the hard way with the Kongs at our household too. Everywhere you read about leaving the house and giving your dogs the Kong treats. Well we did that and ended up having an out and out three way greyhound brawl and came home to a disaster after a dog fight. We never give the Kong treats any more. They are too highly prized at our house. We, too have one dominant hound that is gets snarly if the other two are too close when he has treats only (could care less about his food and water). I agree with everyone else about leaving the wound until Monday. We've had similar ones over here that have healed without stitches or even without antibiotics. Our vet has lately taken the stance that we should just clean it with antibacterial soap and water daily and put antibiotic ointment on it if it's not too deep or large of a wound. Then if it were to show any signs of infection, then we would start antibiotics. And since you're already scheduled for the vet on Monday, you're poor baby should be fine until then. Keeping your little sweetie in my prayers for a quick healing and Tiger, Bueller and Domino sending some healing doggie kisses too!

[TheFullHouse]

Along with him maybe having a health issue here are my thoughts. If he just came off the track, at the track they are turned out 4 times a day, at that time they have to get all the water they can because they don't have access to water again until the next turn out. It could be that your boy is trying to drink as much as he can because he doesn't know when he'll get it again. He's been trained and conditioned to think like this. If it were me, I'd put his bowl down full, walk away and let him drink as much as he wants. When you come back into the room, fill it again and see if he still drinks as much. You may find that once he realizes he has water whenever he wants it without asking for it, he may not drink as much.

 

I have two huge dish pans of water for my dogs and they can drink whenever they want. You may want get a much bigger bowl and let the two dogs share water. In the racing kennels there are community buckets and all the hounds are used to drinking out of the same containers together with no aggression problems what so ever.

 

I have a couple of my dogs who only drink twice a day, even though water is readily available but when they drink, they drink a ton but that's all they want for several hours. He may be the same way.

 

I definitely wouldn't favor the first dog over the second, especially since he's taken on the alpha role between the two. You are setting yourself up for a dog fight where someone is going to get seriously hurt.

[5blackgreys]

My foster just had a wound that was very similar in size. I washed it with antibacterial soap and used bacitracin ointment and had it just about healed up when she decided to spend some time licking it. A dime sized skin break then turned in a quarter going on fifty cent piece!!

 

It was my fault for not thinking about it but I should have put a T shirt on her before she got to it. If you can keep it covered hopefully you can avoid my mistake.

[Guest kgildea]

Sorry to hear about the spat. No advice here just a for your patience and a to help soothe Sparto's owie.

 

Definitely keep us posted on the vet's comments re Canaan's drinking...

[GeorgeofNE]

It's pretty common for a new adoptee to drink too much water. They're not used to having access to it. But it won't end if you continue to withhold water! I'd start on a Friday night and just leave it out (how on earth do you keep one dog from the other water dish?) all weekend. Once he realizes there is always water, he'll probably stop chugging it.

 

I was told by my dog's foster that he "can't have a water dish because he'll just drink it." Really? Imagine that! A dog who has no idea when his next chance at water will be seizing the opportunity when it presents itself.

 

Needless to say, once he realized he was always going to have water, he stopped his excessive consumption!

[Guest jhev1]

It's kind of funny/sad to see Spartacus try to lick his wound. It is on his right shoulder, and no matter how he tries, he just can't get his tongue there, so we are lucky in that regard. I guess we will try leaving lots of water for Canaan next weekend and see how it goes.

 

As far as him not going to Spartacus's bowl, Canaan is pretty smart. He tried the first couple of days to get Spartacus's water, but a few stern "Not yours!" and he knows it's not his. Like I said, he wouldn't even drink from his bowl when it was close to where Spartacus's bowl is. He is definitely much smatter than Spartacus, just don't tell Spartacus I said that!

 

I’ll post an update about the vet’s findings on Monday.

 

[Guest PhillyPups]

Congrats on your new boy. He is fresh off the track, so has NO IDEA what is expected of him. As it has been explained on this board by Heather (greysandmoregreys) homelife to him is like you being placed on an unknown planet where the life form is not human.

 

One thing, I would do is give both dogs free access to water. When I bring a new dog in the home, babygates are my friend. I feed the new one behind the babygate, give treats to the hounds with the new pup behind the babygate, teaching him that when others get ne, he will also get one. Even though my boyz have been together a while now, and are all used to each other and they all get along, a hard fast rule is NO TREATS UNLESS I AM RIGHT THERE IN THE ROOM WITH THEM. At this point in time, as they have all learned to trust each other, mine will all chew their bones with their butts touching, but still if I leave the room, all treats are picked up first.

 

Withholding a basic necessity (such as water) from one pup (expecially the dominant one) while giving the other free access is setting the dogs up for an all out dogfight.

 

Wishing you the best of luck with your boys.

 

 

[Guest LindsaySF]

The simple answer to your question is no high value items unsupervised. But you knew we were going to say that. My dogs get those items (and food) in their crates, for safety.

 

 

If you treat one dog differently to the other when it comes to basic needs being met, you are setting yourself up for trouble - and especially so if you're withholding stuff from the one who is the stronger character.

Withholding a basic necessity (such as water) from one pup (expecially the dominant one) while giving the other free access is setting the dogs up for an all out dogfight.

I definitely wouldn't favor the first dog over the second, especially since he's taken on the alpha role between the two. You are setting yourself up for a dog fight where someone is going to get seriously hurt.

I have to agree with the above posts.

 

Please don't take offense to this John, but I think that you are unintentionally messing with the pack dynamics between Canaan and Sparticus. I know that Sparticus was there first, but Canaan is obviously the alpha, and that's ok. Sparticus seems to submit to him, so that's just the way it is. Whenever you reprimand Canaan for asserting his dominance over Sparticus, or withhold things from him that you freely give to Sparticus, that just makes him feel unsure of his position, and makes him more likely to "act out" (for lack of a better term). The dogs will usually work it out between themselves, and the humans don't have to get involved unless there is serious aggression going on.

 

 

As far as him not going to Spartacus's bowl, Canaan is pretty smart. He tried the first couple of days to get Spartacus's water, but a few stern "Not yours!" and he knows it's not his. Like I said, he wouldn't even drink from his bowl when it was close to where Spartacus's bowl is.

Is there a reason why Canaan can not drink from Sparticus's bowl? It sounds like reprimanding him for doing it has made him afraid to even drink from his own water bowl, and that's not a result you want to see. Instead of trying to separate everything into Sparticus's stuff versus Canaan's stuff, why not encourage them to share?

 

 

Saying this nicely, but I would work on Canaan's growling at Spartacus. "Several times in 3 weeks" is not acceptable. Don't forget, YOU are the alpha!

I am going to have to strongly disagree with this. The owner being "alpha" has NOTHING to do with the pecking order among the dogs. You can't determine pecking order, it just IS. Canaan is alpha, and Sparticus is below him. A warning growl here and there is perfectly NORMAL to see among the dogs. It is how dogs communicate. Don't forget, Canaan has only been in this home for 3-4 weeks. Once Canaan is comfortable in his position as dominant over Sparticus, everything should be fine.

 

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

 

[silverfish]

Saying this nicely, but I would work on Canaan's growling at Spartacus. "Several times in 3 weeks" is not acceptable. Don't forget, YOU are the alpha!

I am going to have to strongly disagree with this. The owner being "alpha" has NOTHING to do with the pecking order among the dogs. You can't determine pecking order, it just IS. Canaan is alpha, and Sparticus is below him. A warning growl here and there is perfectly NORMAL to see among the dogs. It is how dogs communicate. Don't forget, Canaan has only been in this home for 3-4 weeks. Once Canaan is comfortable in his position as dominant over Sparticus, everything should be fine.

 

 

~Lindsay~

 

Yes, I agree with you Lindsay.

 

An awful lot of problems occur because people step in when they needn't. As Lindsay says, dogs usually work it out between them if you let it happen, and a growl here and there is normal. If you stop them expressing themselves like this and doing the normal jostling for position, you'll run into trouble because you can't be there 24/7 controlling their behaviour, nor should you be. You want to get to the place where they are settled and you can trust them with each other.

[Guest scfilby]

As far as wounds go, for smaller wounds that would require one or two stictches we use superglue. Either good quality cyanoacralate or liquid bandage, they are the same thing.. clean and dry the wound, trim the hair around the area if needed, hold wound together and apply the glue at the seems. I've used this on myself for years.. works like a charm.

[Guest KennelMom]

I wouldn't take a dog in for stitches on a wound that size. Keep it clean and watch for infection.

 

Most dogs eventually stop tanking up on water once they learn it'll always be there (assuming there's no medical reason for excessive water drinking). Also, having him only three weeks is wayyyyyyyyyyy too soon to be leaving him unattended with a high value treat. But, sounds like you learned that lesson. Coulda been a lot worse.

 

eta: we don't generally enforce or establish a 'pecking order' in our pack. They kinda have a loose one - there are definitely those dogs who command more respect than others. As long as they see us as the head honchos, that's fine. We have a few rules, the most important of which is to not bully other dogs and no outright aggression or unjustified growling. New dogs are allowed a bit more latitude as they learn the rules. For example. If a dog chooses to lay in the middle of the hallway, then they can't growl at a dog that walks near them. If they lay on a bed, then they are allowed a gentle growl warning if another dog is being rude by invading their space. Sound complicated, but believe it or not we have 16 dogs in 1400 sq feet and everyone gets along famously with our house rules.

Edited March 31, 2008 by KennelMom

[Guest jhev1]

Thanks again to all. I understand that you can't determine the pecking order of the dogs, that is not in question here. As I mention earlier, the order here is me, my wife, Canaan then Spartacus. As far as the growl here or there goes, if it is over food or toy, I understand. Canaan has growled at Spartacus for what I perceive as no reason except a growl. No toys, no beds, no food involved. That is not acceptable and I will not tolerate it in my house. I have friends with multiple dogs and none of them have this issue. I won't have Canaan tell Spartacus where he can and can not go in the house, just as I would not tolerate the same behavior from Spartacus towards Canaan. Fortunately though, that behavior has stopped for close to 2 weeks now, exception being the incident this weekend which is another matter all together, and involved food (we strongly suspect).

 

As far as the water goes, the vet thinks that a medical condition at his young age is extremely unlikely. She thinks, as do veteran greytalkers, that it is an adjustment. We will try the free access to the water this weekend and see how it goes. Should both dogs be drinking from the same bowl? Can't they each have their own "station" and receive food and drink there? What about eating? At times they eat in the kitchen together, probably 3 feet from each other. Wouldn't it be easier to monitor water intake if each has their own bowl?

 

Spartacus was shaved today in the area of the wound. It looks much worse today now that it is exposed. The vet thought that it was right on the border of needing a stitch. He is on antibiotics for a week just to be sure. I’d post another pic, but he is resting comfortable now and don’t want to disturb him. He also had a round of shots today, which is no fun.

 

I do appreciate the feedback and do not take offense to any of it. I understand, as I hope all of you do, that when reading something online it is easy to get offended when that was not the intent of the writer. I am just a newbie, especially with two dogs!