Need Feedback On Thyroid Issue

[Guest TinasTroops]

I will try and make this breif.

 

Tilt started itching last weekend - I thought it may be due to the dry house and the large weather change. I gave him an oatmeal bath and applied lotion to him a few times a day. The redness and itchy subsided for a few days and then yesterday it flare up so bad we decided to take him to the Vet - Not our regular Vet becuase I could not get in to see him until Tuesday and I did not want to wait that long.

 

Anyhow, The did a skin scrape on him and blood work.

 

The skin scrape came back as a level 1 bacterial infection - They said normally when there is food alergy or any other alergy they would see the levels up between T2 & T3. So they placed him on Clamovox which is fine. They also gave me the vet versopn of Benedryl at a cost of $80 for 50 tablets Needless to say I am goin to return that and go to a Pharmacy - My first question is what kind and how much do I give him on the human version?

 

Next, I got the call that his Thyroid test came back at 16.7 - and that a normal level is 15 - 36, Is this correct? They want to start him on Thyriod meds as well. First off I am going to consult my Doc becuase I am not placing him on meds just for the sake of it.

 

I want to make sure this is the best route for him.

 

 

So any feed back is appreacited.

 

Tina & Tilt

[Guest TinasTroops]

I have read Dr Freemans Booklet on Symptons and Dr Suzannne Stack DVM on levels but noething seems to fit. No air loss, no loss of Appetite, No baldness, no weigh gain. He has been a steady weight for years!.

 

[Batmom]

I wouldn't start him on thyroid meds without a full panel. The range given as normal on your test is almost certainly for *all* dogs, and greyhounds can run quite a bit lower. Also, the T4/T3 can vary quite a bit from day to day (and at different times on a given day); the values on the full panel make the results more meaningful.

 

What you describe sounds a lot more like allergies than a thyroid problem.

 

Benedryl -- up to 1mg/lb. twice a day. I usually start out at 25mg-50mg twice a day and see how they do. No unattended access to stairs at first. 25mg twice a day was effective for 75-lb. Batman when he had the itchies; 50mg made him pretty snoozy.

[Guest TinasTroops]

Thanks Batmom - I don't want him on any meds he doesn't need to be on and I really think he is in a normal range. I am going to consult with my Vet and go from there.

 

 

I wouldn't start him on thyroid meds without a full panel. The range given as normal on your test is almost certainly for *all* dogs, and greyhounds can run quite a bit lower. Also, the T4/T3 can vary quite a bit from day to day (and at different times on a given day); the values on the full panel make the results more meaningful.

 

What you describe sounds a lot more like allergies than a thyroid problem.

 

Benedryl -- up to 1mg/lb. twice a day. I usually start out at 25mg-50mg twice a day and see how they do. No unattended access to stairs at first. 25mg twice a day was effective for 75-lb. Batman when he had the itchies; 50mg made him pretty snoozy.

 

[Guest TinasTroops]

What are the normal levels?

[patricia]

Both of my babes had a full panel sent off to MI State and they both were very low. Flashy did have huge weight gain and balding. I couldn't understand how he could gain so much weight with no dietary changes. Once he started his soloxine he went right back down to his 72 pounds. His weight was almost up to 90 pounds and I was very concerned. If you think your babe does have thyroid issues...insist on a full panel. Angel LaceyLaine on the other hand had no balding...no weight gain and her panel was profoundly low.

[Batmom]

Many folks say normal T4 for greyhound can be half (or even less) the low end of the range for all dogs. IIRC feemandvm's greyhound health packet has some info about that. You can find his health packet in the Library section here: http://www.animalmedicalcentreofmedina.com/

 

Flashy's symptoms are some of the classics -- hair loss (altho that can be hard to judge on a greyhound) and gaining weight on a miniscule amount of food.

[fritofeet]

I think since he got his antibiotics, I'd make an appointment with my regular vet and have the full thyroid panel and a consult with your regualr Dr. done before giving thyroid meds.

There can be a multitude of reasons for a dog to get a skin infection, and I wouldn't jump straight to thyroid.

 

Not to scare you, but my new vet thinks the thyroid supplement Hogan was on is what caused his strokes.

 

Batmom is right on, I'd guess it was allergies that caused the itching first, and then the infection from the scratching.

 

Poor Tilt. If he has some really itchy spots, human Cortaid directly on can give some relief.

 

 

[Guest TinasTroops]

Well I am happy to have received a response by email from my own Vet - Have I said how much I adore him. He treats us VERY well.

 

And this is what I got from him,

Hey tina happy new year.

Sorry to here about tilt with skin problems. Did they give you benadryl as well or was a different type of antihistamine?

Before putting him on thyroid meds we need to confirm hypothyroidism with TSH, fT4 aswell, since the only clincal signs we have are skin issues. Although sometimes that's all we see. Anantibiotic is a good idea if there is suspicion of skin infection.

 

Let me know.

[RobinM]

So many opinions on the thyroid. I'm not sure why you think your pup has a thyroid issue.

 

My Chloe was a bounce. She was not "bonding" with her owners. She was a spook. From what I understand, it was pretty bad. She hid in her crate and the only time she came out was to eat (and she had to do that without anyone watching) and to go out-- and they had to carry her out of the house. There were young first time greyhound owners. The agency asked them to have her thyroid checked and apparently their vet refused (Who knows?). They brought her back to the kennel and her thyroid was checked. It was .02. Very low, even for a greyhound AND she was exhibiting some signs. RE: SPOOK.

She was put on Soloxine and within 4 days, she was a different dog.

The day we went to look for a dog at the kennel, the owners of Chloe were coming to get her. She saw them and ran back into her crate.

She was waiting for us to take her home so we did! The other couple adopted another dog...

 

Once home and settled, I decided with the help of my vet to wean Chloe off the meds and see if she REALLY was hypothyroid.

It was a slow wean and within 1 week of being completely off the meds, my Chloe was gone.

Instead of a sweet, playful loving girl (who still had pronounced spook in her), she was a total spook who never left her crate.

We waited 6 weeks so that we could do a full profile on her thyroid, not just a T4 and it came back the same as it did the first time. Not only was her T4=2. All the other #s were ridiculously low.

 

The point here is that even if she had tested OK, we would have still put her back on the Soloxine to give her the quality of life she never would have had without it.

But becasue her thryoid proved she actually needed the meds, we had to.

 

Chloe is on .5 mg 2x a day. You would never in a million years believe what she is like now.

 

Of my four, she is one who gets them all going. She is playful, rambunctious, silly, crazy, happy and loving.

 

If they need the meds for use on or off label, they work miraculously.

[ahicks51]

Suggestions:

 

If the thyroid function is truly suspect, send sample to MSU for analysis and interpretation by a veterinary endocrinologist familiar with sighthounds. Will cost the same or less as IDEXX, and give you a number with substantially higher reliability. "Normal" greyhound levels can be close to the detection limits without dialysis, and I *think* MSU is back to running samples by dialysis.

 

What kind of itchiness is he displaying? Eyes, nose, mouth, all over, or....?

 

Coco's allergies have been held at bay with 5 mg every other day- a very tiny dose for a 79 pound dog. It's not a food allergy (based on the elimination diets we have tried, including raw food), so it's probably environmental. Although overdoing pred is a very bad thing, a tiny dose can have remarkable results. Benadryl may just make the poor guy sleepy... and itchy.

 

Let me know if you need more info on sample submission to MSU.

[Guest TinasTroops]

I don't think that - It is what the Vet suggested. And he is not exibiting any of the systoms documented.

 

 

So many opinions on the thyroid. I'm not sure why you think your pup has a thyroid issue.

Edited January 13, 2008 by TinasTroops

[Guest houndlover]

Sounds like your vet is awesome! I am glad that he suggested a full panel and I have used the OTC benadryl for fosters that come in from the kennels with itchy, dry skin and I haven't had any problems. It is so much less expensive than what you get at the vet too! I have one dog on Soloxine for thyroid problems and he exhibited all of the classic symptoms (overweight, hair loss, lethargy, aggression) but it doesn't sound like your Tilt has any of these symptoms. I would lean more towards allergies but would go ahead with the full T4 panel.

[LuvAPuppy]

I have a Great Dane story. I worked for Antech Diagnostics so I could pull my own blood and run what ever I wanted (tests that I performed, not send-outs) for free. Echo was due for her yearly labs and she'd been having recurrent unexplained staph lesions. I changed foods even though she didn't have itchies, yeasty ears or GI symptoms. Still had staph. She laid in the yard a lot so I chalked it up to bug bites and started putting insect repellent on her before she'd go nap in the grass. Still had staph. As soon as she'd go off of the abx, the staph came back. She was due for her yearly labs so of course since I could, I did the full Comprehensive K9 panel with full chem, CBC and T4/TSH. had the results sent to the vet as well as keeping my copy. Dr Nancy rang me up and told me she got the results, she didn't believe them (thyroids showed Echo as hypothyroid) since she didn't have any of the common symptoms: weight gain, bad coat, lethargy, behavioural changes and she wanted to send out to MSU. So I pulled more blood and took it to them to send...even with no common symptoms, she truly was hypothyroid. Meds fixed her up fine until the osteo got her years later.

 

It IS rare, but possible to have nothing but skin symptoms so I would for sure spend the $$ to do the MSU panel. Yes, they do their FreeT4 by lithium dialysis I'm pretty sure because we did ours that way. I think I paid about $95 for the MSU panel but that was probably six years ago. I also didn't have the draw fee since I drew her myself so I don't know how much that would tack on to the fees -- my vet charges $15 for the draw plus the cost of the test.

[Rickiesmom]

I went around this block with my vet also, since grey values are so much lower than other breeds. Here is a thread that has some info about test results and normal values, in case that helps. Net, we did not treat Arlie. Also, the fur she lost on her bum has mostly come back in the cold weather.

 

http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php?showto...32&hl=arlie

[Guest Hannah]

 

a few observations on thyroid from my experience here int he UK.

 

whenever you get a thyroid result you should always get a normal range for the equipment that analysed it, they get calibrated (sort of) on a regular basis and will all analyse the same sample slightly differently.

 

Fluffy had no 'normal' thyroid imbalance symptoms for a long time so go with your guts, if you think there is a good chance something is off go for the full panel.

 

also you need the full range of thyroid values unless you are lucky (unlucky?) enough to have a reading that is obviously out of range. e.g. Fluffy's T4 reading was 286 with a normal range of 15 to 50 (the vet school she went to for treatment read her as 240 with a normal range of 10 to 40), we didnt bother with the rest of the panel (if it had been something like 65 we would have done a full thyroid panel).

 

hope the itchies stop itching soon

Edited January 13, 2008 by Hannah

[Guest TinasTroops]

Just to keep everyone updated - Tilt has had 2 Clamavox in the last 24 hours and 2 sets of Benedryl and I am already seeing a difference in his skin coloring and the amount he is licking and itching.

 

We still have our appt with my Vet tuesday afternoon. So I will keep everyone posted.

[Guest tcornwel]

Tina,

I wonder if it is allergies. It was warm last weekend when the symptoms started - I know that sometimes triggers my environmental allergies. Glad the drugs are helping.

Teresa

[Guest TinasTroops]

Hey Teresa!!! Nice to see you on here. I sure hope it is just allergies.

 

 

Hey there is our Keeper Peeper! LOL

Edited January 13, 2008 by TinasTroops

[ahicks51]

It IS rare, but possible to have nothing but skin symptoms so I would for sure spend the $$ to do the MSU panel. Yes, they do their FreeT4 by lithium dialysis I'm pretty sure because we did ours that way. I think I paid about $95 for the MSU panel but that was probably six years ago. I also didn't have the draw fee since I drew her myself so I don't know how much that would tack on to the fees -- my vet charges $15 for the draw plus the cost of the test.

 

Either test: 20010 or 20011.

 

Canine thyroid panel (20010): $39. Sample submission by "regular mail."

http://www.animalhealth.msu.edu/Bin/Catalo...oid&Id=1388

 

Premium canine thyroid (20011): $55. Sample should be refrigerated or frozen, shipped on ice, with <48 hour shipping.

http://www.animalhealth.msu.edu/Bin/Catalo...oid&Id=1427

 

Endocrinology interpretation (20020): $4.

http://www.animalhealth.msu.edu/Bin/Catalo...ion&Id=1953

 

It would be a good idea to call and see if they're currently running thyroid samples by dialysis. I can never keep straight what the problem was, but for a while they had to go back to the less-sensitive technique.

 

ETA: If doing the shipping yourself, make SURE to pack correctly. The delivery services frown upon packages leaking blood.

Edited January 13, 2008 by ahicks51

[Batmom]

As of about a year ago?, some time back anyways, they were back to doing dialysis.

[LuvAPuppy]

It IS rare, but possible to have nothing but skin symptoms so I would for sure spend the $$ to do the MSU panel. Yes, they do their FreeT4 by lithium dialysis I'm pretty sure because we did ours that way. I think I paid about $95 for the MSU panel but that was probably six years ago. I also didn't have the draw fee since I drew her myself so I don't know how much that would tack on to the fees -- my vet charges $15 for the draw plus the cost of the test.

 

Either test: 20010 or 20011.

 

Canine thyroid panel (20010): $39. Sample submission by "regular mail."

http://www.animalhealth.msu.edu/Bin/Catalo...oid&Id=1388

 

Premium canine thyroid (20011): $55. Sample should be refrigerated or frozen, shipped on ice, with <48 hour shipping.

http://www.animalhealth.msu.edu/Bin/Catalo...oid&Id=1427

 

Endocrinology interpretation (20020): $4.

http://www.animalhealth.msu.edu/Bin/Catalo...ion&Id=1953

 

It would be a good idea to call and see if they're currently running thyroid samples by dialysis. I can never keep straight what the problem was, but for a while they had to go back to the less-sensitive technique.

 

ETA: If doing the shipping yourself, make SURE to pack correctly. The delivery services frown upon packages leaking blood.

 

Figures....I paid the vet direct with the usual outrageous mark-up fee...that new building ought to have MY name on it!!! (but truthfully, don't we all feel that way!)

 

FedEx (and probably all of them) have special lab packaging that can be used. That could be one advantage of paying marked up fees at the vet, it becomes their responsibility to prepare, package and ship the sample properly and in a timely fashion.

[ahicks51]

I had to look it up. I sent Coco's blood by USPS Priority Mail; I ship a lot of biological products, so I had a special crush-resistant tube, and double-boxed it (and bagged each one) along with labels that it was canine blood for diagnostic purposes.

 

From the Domestic Mailing Manual (DMM), section 601 (Mailability), 10.17 Infectious Substances (Hazard Class 6, Division 6.2):

 

d. Exempt human or animal specimen means a human or animal sample (including, but not limited to, secreta, excreta, blood and its components, tissue and tissue fluids, and body parts) transported for routine testing not related to the diagnosis of an infectious disease. Typically, exempt human specimens are specimens for which there is a low probability that the sample is infectious, such as specimens for drug or alcohol testing; cholesterol testing; blood glucose level testing; prostate-specific antigens (PSA) testing; testing to monitor heart, kidney, or liver function; pregnancy testing; and testing for diagnosis of noninfectious diseases such as cancer biopsies. Exempt human or animal specimens are not subject to regulation as hazardous materials but must be packaged according to 10.17.9.

 

Aaaaand then 10.17.9:

 

10.17.9 Packaging Exempt Human or Animal Specimens

 

Exempt human or animal specimens as defined in 10.17.2d are not subject to regulation as hazardous materials but when presented for mailing must be triple-packaged in leakproof (for liquids) or siftproof (for solids) primary receptacles. Sufficient cushioning and absorbent materials must surround each primary receptacle containing liquid. Secondary containers for liquids must be leakproof. Secondary containers for solids must be siftproof. The primary and secondary packaging must be enclosed in a rigid outer shipping container. A single primary receptacle must not contain more than 500 ml of a liquid specimen or 500 grams of a solid specimen. Two or more primary receptacles whose combined volume does not exceed 500 ml (for liquids) or 500 grams (for solids) may be enclosed in a single secondary container. The secondary container cannot serve as the outer shipping container. The secondary container must be marked with the international biohazard symbol shown in Exhibit 10.17.5d3. The secondary container must be securely and snugly enclosed in a fiberboard box or container of equivalent strength that serves as the outer shipping container. A shipping paper is not required. The outer shipping container must be marked on the address side with the words "Exempt human specimen" or "Exempt animal specimen," as appropriate. In addition, at least one surface of the outer packaging must have a minimum dimension of 3.9 inches x 3.9 inches (100 mm x 100 mm). Exempt human and animal specimens are mailable as First-Class Mail, Priority Mail, Express Mail, or Package Services mail.

 

All that for a couple of tubes of dog blood. Just as well; we don't want anyone to get hurt.

 

For shipping live scorpions with "medically significant" venom, things really get tricky.

[Guest TinasTroops]

Update for everyone,

 

So Dr John did a guick examination of Tilt. He is running the Thyriod tests for me and will see.

He said that even though his Thyriod is lower if the meds are helping him already then he thinks it is more Allergeries or Bacterial infection and the reason for that is it is secured in few areas. He is veering more to Bacterial becuase Allergies would more then lickely mean that his legs and feet would also be affected and there not.

 

I also discussed the other visit with the new vet with him and the cost for 100 pills of Benedryl for $82 and that I thought it was outrages and that I felt she was over medicating him. 2, 50mg pills in the morning and at dinner for a total of 200mg.

 

If his Thyriod comes back normalish then we will start to work on other things like a more invasive blood test for Allergies and then maybe a Skin Punch Test - had it when I was a kid for my allergies. I hope to stick to the blood test. If it is allergies then we can start to allimate things that may cause this and start him on injections to try and help build up his system. Dr John and I both had this done as kids and found it to be helpful. Dr John also allows me to do our dog injections so that will help me finacially. As we do Booker Adquan shots as well.

 

If it is bacterial then we have to wham it with meds. I told him I didn't want to trash the other Vet but I felt like she was trying to load me up with meds and not trying to find out the true issue. Wanting both the bacterial medication and thyroid meds for Tilt to be on.

 

Doesn't make sense to me to medicate him for both and not know what it truly is.

 

My whole bill for Tilt was $119. Other Vet was $306

 

That was last Wed...... Results came in... he is well within normal range so next step is a Skin Punch Test for my baby. We're back off to the Vet's this Wed.

[Batmom]

Hope you find out something useful from the next tests.