Sudden, Unprovoked Violence

[vjgrey]

This will be long but we're really at a loss here, and I wanted to explain as much as possible about our situation. Has anyone else dealt with anything like this before?

 

We adopted Gabe four months ago. He's six years old and was a "bounce." He spent approximately two years in a home before he was returned for repeatedly attacking the woman's older, male greyhound. She also had a female who he'd always been fine with. When we adopted him, he'd spent a year and a half (after his return) in the kennel. RTW made it clear that he didn't get along with male dogs, so any future dogs we adopted would need to be female. That was fine with us.

 

When we brought him home, he showed some signs of Separation Anxiety - howling, soiling in the house (despite being house trained), scratching up the door and walls and "collecting" our clothes and shoes. We did alone training and tried crating him, but he tended to panic in the crate. I finally discovered that it worked best to leave him loose but baby gated into one room - an enclosed area but not too enclosed. That helped but didn't solve all of the SA issues - he still howled and/or soiled occasionally.

 

Aside from the Separation Anxiety and some car anxiety (which we solved by trading our Mini for an SUV), Gabe was a perfect hound. He's smart, calm, obedient and very affectionate. We love, love, love this dog.

 

He has had a few health problems, however. A week after we brought him home, he developed a limp. The vet suggested arthritis and gave him rymadil. Around the second week, a sore developed on the pad of one toe. The vet discontinued the rymadil and gave us an antibiotic spray. He assumed Gabe's pads were just soft and needed to adjust to concrete (we live in the city). After a month or so (the toe sore still hadn't healed) a lump developed on the front of the same toe. At the same time, he became VERY sick and started to lose weight rapidly. We were terrified and insisted that the vet do a biopsy and x-rays. These showed no signs of cancer - they essentially showed nothing except an infection in his toe. The lump was surgically removed, Gabe did two courses of oral antibiotics, and everything cleared up - the sores on his foot, the limp, the stomach problems, the weight loss - everything.

 

We'd had Gabe for two months when we decided to chip - since Gabe has always been around other dogs, we thought another greyhound would help the SA he was still experiencing. We took him to the kennel and, with him, picked out our sweet little girl. We brought her home six weeks later, after her broken hock healed.

 

We've now had Diamond for three weeks, and, for the most part, she and Gabe have been great together. They've had no food/toy aggression and no space aggression. He tries to "cuddle" with her a lot and pouted and paced when she went to the groomer. She was a little "bossy" at first, but after the first few days, she followed his lead. The few times he's growled at her have been cases of sleep aggression. She tends to sprawl all over the place when she sleeps, and he tends to growl (growl, not snap) when he's touched/startled in his sleep. Our solution has been to spread their beds apart and/or to muzzle them when necessary.

 

So everything was going well in our happy, two-hound household until yesterday morning.

 

Gabe attacked me yesterday morning. I say “attacked,” and not “bit,” because it wasn’t one quick “nip.” He was growling and snarling, and he bit my face repeatedly. I have a puncture wound on my left temple, a gash over my eye, one on my eyelid and two under my eye, as well as a gash on my right temple and several cuts on the top of my head. Fortunately, none of them needed stitches.

 

Here’s what happened:

 

We more or less followed our normal morning routine: generally, we wake up around 6:30, they eat, and we all go back to bed for a few hours, until it’s time for me to get up for school. Yesterday morning, I had school work to do, so after they ate, I sat up in bed and read for an hour or so. Diamond jumped up and curled up near the head of the bed, and Gabe jumped up and curled up at the foot. Gabe isn’t usually allowed on the bed when Diamond is on (and isn't allowed to sleep on it at night), because of his sleep aggression, but, again, his “sleep aggression” has never been more than “light” growling - no snapping or even growling with teeth. Whenever this has happened, he’s been ordered off the bed (and has willingly hopped down). So, while I normally wouldn’t allow them on together, I did yesterday morning. They were at opposite corners of the bed (so there was NO chance of either of us bumping him) and I knew I’d be awake, reading, in case I needed to referee.

 

When I finished my reading, I still had an hour before I needed to be up, so I decided to go back to sleep. When I fell asleep, Diamond was still up at the head of the bed on the right side, with me, and Gabe was still on the foot of the bed, at the far left. Again, I assumed they were far enough apart to be okay.

 

I’d been asleep for about twenty minutes when I woke up to find Gabe standing over me. He was growling, teeth bared, and before I could react at all, he lunged and bit me several times. He seemed to be in a trance and didn’t respond to my yelling his name, yelling no or my screaming. I tried to push him off but couldn’t, so I finally pulled a blanket up between us. Once I did this, it seemed to break his focus, and he was suddenly back to his old self, happily hopping off the bed when I ordered him off. He didn't seem to know what had happened.

 

Until this morning (and even after that incident) he’s been such a sweet, affectionate dog. It seems so out of character for him, my husband and I are just stunned.

 

If this is just sleep aggression, I suppose that’s easy enough to fix: Gabe will not be allowed on the bed, will not be allowed to sleep near Diamond and will not be approached without waking him (all things we already make a policy of most of the time). However, my understanding of sleep aggression is that it’s a reflex. In order to do what he did this morning, he had to stand up, turn around, and cross the full length of the bed. He also paused before he attacked. For a few seconds when I woke up, he was standing over me, growling. (Also, I don’t think I was close enough to touch/bump Gabe). It seems too much to be reflexive.

 

We've been in contact with the woman at RTW who handled his adoption, and she said she's convinced it almost has to be something medical, such as a seizure disorder or a brain tumor. While he has a history of aggression with male dogs, he's NEVER displayed any aggression toward people.

 

We saw his vet this afternoon. I feel VERY dissatisfied with his response, and I'm thinking of seeking a second opinion.

 

He's running a thyroid screen (Screen, NOT a full panel. When I told him about the information I'd found on this site and suggested a full panel, he said hypothyroidism is over diagnosed in greyhounds and that he'll only do a full panel if something shows up on the screening). He also said we'll look into a seizure disorder if necessary, but his focus seems to be entirely behavioral.

 

He thinks that Gabe, as the "Alpha," feels "challenged," by Diamond's presence on the bed. He essentially thinks his attack on me was a case of misdirected aggression. This seems odd to me for several reasons 1) Gabe is six years old and has NEVER done anything like this before. His aggression, where there's been any, has always been directed at a dog, not a person 2) Diamond was two feet away from me, and he never touched her. If he was feeling aggressive toward her, there was no need to direct it to me (The vet acknowledged this but didn't have an answer for it) 3) Aside from the irritated, "Don't bump me," sleep growls, he hasn't shown any aggression toward Diamond 4) In fact, we haven't seen him show aggression toward any dog. He's allowed dogs in our apartment complex to sniff him, jump on him, bark at him, growl at him. One dog actually jumped up and nipped him on the nose, and he just stood there, tolerantly.

 

The vet recommended that we crate both dogs at night (not going to happen) OR shut them out of the bedroom at night, never allow either dog on the bed, and start NILIF with Gabe.

 

I'm not opposed to looking at some behavioral changes, but I also think, given the suddenness and violence of the attack, there must be something else going on.

 

The thing that makes most sense to me is a seizure disorder. Gabe is often VERY "active" when he sleeps - running, kicking, barking, howling and sometimes yelping. Last night, he let out a LONG, blood-curdling howl in his sleep. I've NEVER heard a sound like that from him, asleep or awake. I know some dogs do that, but his is SO active and happens SO often that I've wondered, even before any of this came up, whether that was seizure behavior. I'd dismissed the thought, because I wasn't aware until recently that you could have seizures without convulsions. I think a seizure disorder might also explain why he has a history of attacking other dogs, although he's normally extremely tolerant.

 

Any thoughts? Suggestions? Similar experiences?

 

Returning Gabe is NOT something we're considering, but we need to get to the bottom of this and make sure it never happens again.

 

We love this boy, and my husband and I are both devastated.

[Remolacha]

I am far from being an expert on this, and I'm sure you will get more knowledgeable responses, but, as soon as you described his behavior in the attack, I thought "seizure". I hope you can get to the bottom of this quickly!

[Devotion]

no advice, just hugs and prayers. I am glad you are trying to find out what is actually occuring and not just returning him. I know others will offer advice and knowledge. I am sorry.

[macoduck]

That must have been so scary for you.

We had one foster here with sleep and space aggression. Her reactions were lightening fast. Over time I trusted her and let her on the bed with me with no problem. Until one night I moved (and surely I must haved moved in my sleep before) and she jumped up to snap at me. I called her name and she stopped, blinked and looked like she didn't know how she'd gotten into that position. No more bed sharing with her.

So I am thinking maybe it is possible for sleep aggression to cause this, even with Gabe standing over you.

Thank you for making the effort to find a cause for Gabe's problem.

[RobinM]

1st of all. Hugs. I've been there. The only difference was i wound up with 8 stictches over my eye and 2 on the cheek with a derabond adhesive on the other side of my face. It was a mess. I do understand how devastated you feel.

 

It will pass.

 

I would definitely get a grey savvy vet to start with the full panel. He needs to have behavioral training too. Your group should be able to direct you to someone competent and grey savvy. Best of luck and do not allow him on your bed.

[Guest trevdog]

Get another vet to check him out...it could be a seizure, thyroid, or something else. I would not allow either of them ever on your bed, he could be trying to be Alpha over you, or he could be upset she was up there too. Have you ever allowed him on the bed before she arrived? Also NILIF is a must.

I'm sorry this happened but it's good that you are trying to work it out.

[Lilysmom]

Ok, take a deep breath. I hope you are ok, I know emotionally how disturbing this is.

 

The absolute first thing to do is get a medical check up which you are doing and I agree a full thyroid screening should be done.

 

#2 implement NILIF right now! All furniture/bed priveleges need to be taken away. Make Gabe work for everything (i.e. treats/ breakfast/dinner and petting) by having him do a sit or down before giving the reward. Be stern and consistant. I would also consider muzzeling both pups when you are not home.

 

Good Luck!

 

 

[GreytNut]

Holy cow, that's scary.

 

It could be sleep aggression, I guess... but it really doesn't sound like it. What you describe sounds more like a fit, either a seizure or some sort of brain disorder or tumor. Has he been vaccinated for rabies? If not, or if you have any doubts, get thee to a doctor ASAP just to be on the safe side. You can prevent infection if you get shots right away, but there's no effective treatment once symptoms start. Hypothyroidism can also cause aggression, though I haven't heard of anyone whose dog has gone completely over the top like Gabe did. Just a T4 alone is pretty near useless in diagnosing it, so demand a full thyroid panel. An extremely thorough examination by the vet would be a very good idea. IMHO, your vet doesn't sounds like he's doing much to rule out medical issues before assuming it's a behavioral problem.

 

Be careful. Don't let him sleep in the room with you, and use his turnout muzzle. I hope you're both feeling better (and safer!) very soon.

 

 

[zimsmom]

I'm so sorry this has happened to you. I've been bitten & it is very upsetting. There is no way I could have Zim up on the bed with Patches. She is the head of this house (at least she thinks she is) & was here first. I agree that it my have been misdirected aggression. That said you have to be very careful that no one else including herself gets hurt. I also asked for thyroid testing when I was going through this & 2 vets said the same as yours. That thyroid disease is overdiagnosed & usually not the cause. If the vet thought some type of tumor did he suggest a CT/MRI scan. No further bed or couch priviledges. Can they be separated some way in your room at night so your new girl does not get bitten? Best of luck. I know how upsetting this is.

[Guest Scouts_mom]

Wow, what a scary situation! Just a couple of suggestions/ideas: Do dogs sleep walk and did he do this while he was asleep? Whatever the cause, I would recommend no dogs on the bed at all, to make sure this does not happen again. And finally, get a very thorough exam of you boy (I know you are doing this).

[Batmom]

Getting him checked out medically is a really good idea.

 

That said, it does sound like sleep startle/sleep aggression to me.

 

I would keep dogs off people furniture and, if necessary for your peace of mind, slip their kennel muzzles on at night until you've gotten a full analysis of things.

 

Hugs and hopes for good healing -- physical and emotional.

 

 

 

Edited because I can't read or think, evidently ..........

Edited November 9, 2007 by Batmom

[greyhoundlady]

First, I commend you on your writing. You covered everything and answered any question the reader could have. If it is not a medical condition, my thought is that he may have been asleep at the end of the bed, and you inadvertently nudged him with your foot, awaking his sleep aggression response. Maybe he then, in the split second it takes these greys to move, was over you like a shot and assumed the alpha role - angry to have been woken. I have two greys also. One female - the sweetest in the world - and one male, who is sleep aggressive and dog and cat aggressive. He is not allowed on the bed, but sleeps on his own bed on the floor, right next to my side of the bed. I love him more than you can imagine.

 

So, I would say, if the medical problems are ruled out, it may be the sleep aggression. That may never go away. I have had my guy for over 3 years now, and although he has gotten better - I don't push his buttons.

 

Good luck - so glad to see you are trying to find an answer.

[galgrey]

I'm so sorry this happened to you. I know how upset and confused you must feel. I too have read about seizure activity manifesting in this way and wonder if that's what this is or if it's just sleep space aggression ...

 

I have experienced a somewhat similiar situation with my girl, Carly. She is extremely timid but has the worst sleep "aggression" I've experienced. My first greyhound had it but Carly's is intense. When startled awake she comes up snarling and snapping while at the same time trying to flee. It's really like she's panicked and feels she needs to fight for her life if she's can't immediately run away.

 

One night shortly after I adopted her, I rolled over in bed in the dark thinking the greyhound beside me was my male, Keno. But Carly had gotten on the bed with me while I was asleep and when I rolled over and touched her she sprang up snapping and snarling in my face. I was so started that I screamed and of course this flipped her out even more. She kept lunging at me and might have bitten me if I hadn't thrown a blanket over her head. I realize now because of the way I positioned my body she probably felt trapped against the wall was likely lunging at me trying to get away. Typically if anything frightens her she runs and gets in her crate.

 

She's gotten less fearful now and is a really sweet and loving dog. I never seen any aggressive from her except when she startled from a deep sleep. Needless to say, she does not get on the bed with me now and I never touch her or allow anyone else to touch her when she's sleeping. Sometimes she sleeps with her eyes open, so I always call her name first.

 

I am going to request a full thyroid panel on her. She's 4 1/2 and it will be good to have a baseline on her if nothing else.

 

I hope you find the answer to your boy's problem. A good thorough physical and thyroid panel sounds like a good place to start to me. Hugs.

Edited November 9, 2007 by galgrey

[grey14me]

wow, I'm so sorry, that is so scary. I still think it's possible that it could be the misdirected sleep aggression...Gabe went to sleep knowing that Diamond was on the bed and probably was a little tense because of it. obviously, something startled him and he jumped up growling and snapping at the closest thing. perhaps you screaming and yelling didn't make him realize that it was you that he was attacking, he could have still thought it was Diamond...it's almost like they're in a trance...sleep aggression is such an odd thing. I was bitten in the face by a greyhound with sleep aggression...it was a dog I was babysitting and I knew she had that tendency and yet, since she'd been at my house multiple times with no incidents, I just kind of forgot. well, after brushing my teeth, I bent over her to kiss her goodnight and she got me pretty good. no growling, no noise at all, just all of a sudden blood dripping onto the bed is what made me realize that she'd actually gotten me. I don't think she really had any idea what happened, and at first, I didn't either. I certainly learned my lesson though...never forget! first of all, I would never allow Gabe on the bed again, ever...and I would definitely check into the seizure possibility as well...although, I"m not sure how you would do that, unless he has another one.

 

I just wanted to add that my girl does that wailing thing, too...not very often, but it is a very haunting sound. I would just say that my girl has no sleep or space aggression, so perhaps the wailing isn't actually related, other than that the dog is just really, really in a deep sleep...

[ahicks51]

Until such point in time that you can determine the nature of the disorder, you might consider muzzling more than just when sleeping. Whether this is sleep aggression, a seizure disorder, a tumor, or something else, you run a risk of personal injury- as well as to that of your other grey- if there is another "event."

 

Note that with any thyroid testing you have performed, there is a difference between labs. Most vets will go with a national service, like IDEXX. The problem is that "normal" greyhound numbers can be as low as the detection limits on most thyroid tests. Michigan State University's veterinary diagnostic lab performs the test via dialysis, which is considered sensitive enough to achieve the desired resolution for sighthound levels. I think it's their test 20010 ($39):

 

http://animalhealth.msu.edu/Bin/Catalog.ex...oid&Id=1388

 

It may also be their premium test, 20011 ($55):

 

http://animalhealth.msu.edu/Bin/Catalog.ex...oid&Id=1427

 

Add on $4 for an endocrinology interpretation by a veterinary endocrinologist with an understanding of sighthounds:

 

http://animalhealth.msu.edu/Bin/Catalog.ex...ion&Id=1953

 

The "regular" test (20010) can be shipped without refrigeration, via Priority Mail. The 20011 requires iced shipping with USPS Express or similar shipping.

 

Good luck with your pup. Thanks for the detailed background.

[iluvgreys]

That must have been a terrifying experience for you. I commend you and your DH in your willingness to work with Gabe and try to get to the bottom of this. Some kind of seizure behavior came to mind as I read your description. Agree with keeping him off furniture, muzzle both dogs when left alone, and continue to check out possible medical causes. Many prayers and hugs...

 

 

Edited November 9, 2007 by iluvgreys

[Burpdog]

Find another vet and insist on a thyroid panel sent to Michigan.

 

As what everyone else said, no bed or furniture priviledges.

 

I would also do a tick panel. Make sure you check for them all and I'd even do a PCR for e ewingii. If you can afford to, I'd do a MRI of the brain if nothing shows on the tick panel.

 

The fact that he was up and standing over you, then bit you, I am not convinced this is sleep aggression. In my opinion, he is not a dog to be trusted. I would not be surprised if he attacks Diamond as he did the other grey in the house he used to live in.

 

I know cats get rage syndrome and I believe dogs can have it also. If this is what he has, you are fighting a losing battle

 

edited to add: as I hit the reply button, the look you described reminded me of a bite I got from a Dobe that I woke up from a deep sleep. He was sick and had never bitten me before or after that one time. Find a different vet so you can explore all.

Edited November 9, 2007 by Burpdog

[Guest MZH]

Wow, I betcha Gabe has temporal lobe epilepsy.

 

We had a Greyhound with this problem. Jonesy would occasionally attack our other dogs for no apparent reason. Once he got our whippet near the throat while we were simply going for a walk. He did it again in the middle of the night to another of our Greyhounds, again going for the throat. Both dogs needed stitches.

 

The victims never showed fear or dislike of Jonesey. They must have known it wasn't aggression but an illness. We noticed he'd do that whenever he had a medical problem brewing, like a UTI. He was a really nice dog otherwise.

 

If I were you, I'd try putting Gabe on phenobarbital as soon as he's had a good physical. I wish I had known about this when Jonesy was still alive as no one ever suggested this might be his problem. Perhaps it was thought to be mainly a Springer Spaniel problem so they didn't think of it.

 

Marcia in SC

[silverfish]

Gosh ... VERY scary.

 

This doesn't sound like simple sleep aggression to me. I would insist on a full panel thyroid check, and look into the seizure possibilities too. If it were me, I'd ask for a referral to a specialist right off the bat, simply due to the urgent nature of the problem. You don't want to risk injury to anyone, human or canine.

 

It is almost unheard of for a dog to aggressively attack a sleeping person. If they do, there's something very much not right.

 

I would certainly remove bed privileges because it doesn't sound as if it's safe to have him up there with you.

 

Good luck on getting to the bottom of this. And hugs - I'm sure you need them.

[romansperson]

I was thinking 'rage' syndrome too - no one knows exactly what causes it - most likely there are multiple causes and there is more than one method of treatment, which is combined with behavioral therapy. It would be a good idea to see if you can consult with a vet who is also a behavorial specialist, like Dr. Dodman at Tufts. I know they have a consulting service there, but you may be able to find someone good to see in person if you don't live in that part of the country.

 

I'm so sorry this happened - and I admire you for wanting to work it out with Gabe. Just stay safe! No more dogs on the bed - ever.

[Jiffer]

It's hard to say what it is.

 

Definitely go with NILIF. My first thought was that maybe you should consider crating him at night just to be safe.

 

I think that Sleep Aggression, if no medical cause is found, would be the most likely cause of this behaviour. If he was still half asleep, then no doubt he wouldn't recognize you as he was lunging at you. Keeping in mind that dogs bodies are not like ours when we sleep. Our bodies release a chemical that prevents us from getting up and walking around. Dogs either don't or don't release enough, which is why they wiggle, run and woof in their sleep.

 

This is why: Miss Echo has mild sleep aggression. She will growl and air snap at the boys if they get to close, especially if she was in a dead sleep and they woke her. I've never had to worry about this since she's fine with DH and I and she doesn't sleep in our bed (her choice). One weekend, we were camping.. four dogs, two people in a four person tent. Echo was sprawled near my feet, Icarus at my side, Atlas and Orion on DH's side. I did one of those "falling asleep all over body jerks" only to wake up with my leg in Echo's mouth. She never bit, but she was certainly close.

[NeylasMom]

Find another vet and insist on a thyroid panel sent to Michigan.

 

As what everyone else said, no bed or furniture priviledges.

 

I would also do a tick panel. Make sure you check for them all and I'd even do a PCR for e ewingii. If you can afford to, I'd do a MRI of the brain if nothing shows on the tick panel.

 

The fact that he was up and standing over you, then bit you, I am not convinced this is sleep aggression. In my opinion, he is not a dog to be trusted. I would not be surprised if he attacks Diamond as he did the other grey in the house he used to live in.

 

I know cats get rage syndrome and I believe dogs can have it also. If this is what he has, you are fighting a losing battle

 

edited to add: as I hit the reply button, the look you described reminded me of a bite I got from a Dobe that I woke up from a deep sleep. He was sick and had never bitten me before or after that one time. Find a different vet so you can explore all.

 

I agree with everything Burpdog said and second greyhoundlady's compliments on your post. You obviously care very much about your pups and I hope you get this sorted out. I would definitely explore the medical possibilities thoroughly if this were my dog. Not sure where you're located, but there's a great veterinary behaviorist here in the DC metro area named Dr. Marsha Reich and a second, Dr. Meyers. They are VERY expensive, but I recommend working with one if you can find one in your area. You might call one of them to get more local recommendations. I've worked with Dr. Reich on 2 foster cases and you're just not going to get the depth of knowledge, both behaviorally and medically, from any other one source. Going with a vet behaviorist, while having the actual tests run through a greyhound savvy vet, seems like your best option for something this severe. Please keep us posted!

[Fruitycake]

Ouch, how scary for all of you!

 

I don't have a whole lot to add but to say that you are the customer and if you want a % full panel thyroid test done, the doctor (your "employee") should bloody well give it to you. I just fought my own vet about the same thing and if she had not given in, I would have taken my business elsewhere and explained why. Yes, it is a slim chance that it will show anything, but any ability to proactively eliminate possible medical causes for the behavior is important! It is your dog and yourmoney, so if you want to "waste" money on a test that the vet doesn't think will show anything, it is YOUR choice.

 

Don't give up!

 

toni, michael, and Amnesiac Monty (seizure free for 6 days, 7.5 hours)

 

 

 

 

[Guest VelvetEars]

I know how scared you must have been. You're doing the right thing by seeking a second opinion. My first thought was it almost sounds like he was dreaming, but sleep aggression is like that. It can be very sudden, seemingly unprovoked, and potentially dangerous, as you've discovered.

 

Sometimes, people have also done desensitivity training with sleep aggressive dogs by lobbing stuffed animals at them when they're asleep so that the dog realizes that it can be bothered while asleep and nothing bad will happen - desensitizing them to being disturbed. If you do this, I would muzzle for his nap before you start.

 

All the other suggestions are right on --- run the Michigan State thyroid panel. See a behaviorist. Get a second opinion by another grey-savvy vet. Implement NILIF. It's all good. And remember - we are here if you need to vent or be reminded why it's worth it. Many of us have had difficult hounds. I have one who had severe SA and it took nearly 3 years to finally get to where I could leave and not come home to a huge mess or accidents. She also had sleep aggression and general space aggression. We worked through it. It can be done. And now, that same hound is recovering from a stroke, so she has all sorts of other issues now. She's a challenge, but I love her and can't imagine life w/o her.

 

[vjgrey]

Thank you so much for all the advice, hugs and prayers. I'll let you know what we find out.

 

We'll exhaust all of the medical possibilities and then seek help from a behaviorist, if necessary. My sweet boy is worth it.