Raw Meat - Freeze First?

[Guest outofsighthound]

Someone told me that I should freeze raw meat (then thaw) before feeding it to my greyhound? Is this true? Does it matter? I was planning on introducing beef and chicken breasts. Tips?

[DocsDoctor]

Yes, it's a good idea. Kills off any salmonella or other bugs that for humans would be destroyed by cooking. That said dogs are much less likely to succumb to these than we are, because they have a shorter gut. I think the usual advice is that it is safest to freeze for a week or so before defrosting and serving, but I have fed stuff which has had a shorter turnround period/not been frozen at all without ill effect.

 

Is the raw meat going to be an add-in or are you switching to an-all raw diet? If the latter I would do some reading up first as it is evidently a complicated business to get right and provide all the nutrients the dog needs.

 

If like me you plan to feed your dog principally on dried food but add in some raw as a treat, here is what has worked for me. Certainly I have found Doc loves the occasional pack of human-quality beef mince when I see these remaindered and I'm sure he would also love chicken breasts but either of these served on a regular basis will work out pretty expensive! Try chicken wings, which he gets every day for breakfast. The bones in the wings are a source of calcium, good for teeth and firm up poops. Hold onto the chicken wing tip as you offer it if you think your dog might try just to gulp it down the first time. My pet shop also has inexpensive 1lb packets of frozen mince of various types (rabbit, chicken, lamb) which are convenient to try. Minced raw green tripe is especially popular here - very smelly, but also very beneficial, the vitamins from the half-digested cow stomach contents (eugh!) are easily absorbed. I have also given him remaindered pigs liver from the supermarket, liver is especially rich in iron but should not be fed too often - advice is that it should make up no more than 10% of the total diet I believe.

[BauersMom]

Freezing is NOT an effective way to kill off most bugs. In fact, there was a large salmonella breakout a few years back from ice cream! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?c...st_uids=8609944

 

The only one that can be affected by freezing is trichinosis found in pork, but that has been largely eliminated in US food sources.

[Guest Ola]

Actually, most bacteria doesn't get killed by freezing. However, it will not reproduce at lower temperatures, it simply lies "dormant" if that's the right word. When you thaw it "wakes up" again. So freezing is not beneficial from the standpoint of killing bacteria - though certainly your dogs can handle it, like many of the other greys on the board who eat raw or have raw items added to their diet.

 

What freezing does accomplish, is that it can kill parasites if any are present in the meat. This is a concern if you are feeding wild pork or deer meat, and certain kinds of wild-caught fish. However, for domestically raised meat that is meant for human consumption (i.e. that you buy in a grocery store), it would have little benefit. What's more, most of the meat that we purchase in stores has already been frozen so that it can be preserved and transported to us without going bad.

 

So all that said, I wouldn't bother with freezing. Of course if you buy more meat that you can feed in a couple of days there is no problem with freezing the extra to prevent spoilage. My suggestion, if you want to feed beef and chicken, would be to try the chicken first, as the beef is a bit more "rich". Have fun!

[silverfish]

Yes, it's a good idea. Kills off any salmonella or other bugs that for humans would be destroyed by cooking.

 

I'm sorry, but freezing does NOT kill bacteria, they simply lie dormant until you thaw and then reproduce even faster.

 

I have also given him remaindered pigs liver from the supermarket, liver is especially rich in iron but should not be fed too often - advice is that it should make up no more than 10% of the total diet I believe.

 

Please bear in mind that you should not feed raw sheep liver because of the risk of hydatid cyst-forming tapeworm infesting your dog. These tapes are very, very small and may not be noticed by you, but are a serious risk to human health.

 

The only one that can be affected by freezing is trichinosis found in pork, but that has been largely eliminated in US food sources.

 

Neospora is also killed by freezing and is the main reason I freeze raw meet before feeding it to my dogs. IIRC, it's mainly - or maybe even only - beef which is affected, but I freeze all but poultry and lamb ribs.

 

If anyone knows a reason I should freeze those too, please tell me!

 

What's more, most of the meat that we purchase in stores has already been frozen so that it can be preserved and transported to us without going bad.

 

That is most definitely not true here.

 

Most of the meat found on the chiller shelves in supermarkets and butchers' shops in the UK is fresh. If it has been frozen and then thawed before sale, it must bear a label which clearly states this, because it's bad practice to re-freeze most foods, especially those which are easily contaminated with bacteria.

 

Is that just Canada, or does that apply to the US too?

[Guest Ola]

Unfortunately, the food supply chain has stretched quite a bit here. In regular supermarkets the meat has traveled a lot by the time it gets to our shelves, and most of these stores only receive prepared/cleaned carcasses that they divide up and sell. Some even receive pre-packaged meat and don't even do cutting on-site. I'm sure that there are some that do their own butchering, however this would be the exception to the rule.

 

In fact, I have spotted items on the shelves that have a bright green "Fresh" sticker, but are in fact, still frozen.

 

You have a good point about regional differences though, since different areas of the world have different meat safety concerns. We should have first asked where the OP lived before giving out advice.

[grey8greys]

I am not sure about killing bacteria, but I have found that freezing meat for a while before cooking it seems to make the meat more tender. I don't feed raw to my hounds, but I do this for myself.

[Guest outofsighthound]

Yes, it's a good idea. Kills off any salmonella or other bugs that for humans would be destroyed by cooking. That said dogs are much less likely to succumb to these than we are, because they have a shorter gut. I think the usual advice is that it is safest to freeze for a week or so before defrosting and serving, but I have fed stuff which has had a shorter turnround period/not been frozen at all without ill effect.

 

Is the raw meat going to be an add-in or are you switching to an-all raw diet? If the latter I would do some reading up first as it is evidently a complicated business to get right and provide all the nutrients the dog needs.

 

If like me you plan to feed your dog principally on dried food but add in some raw as a treat, here is what has worked for me. Certainly I have found Doc loves the occasional pack of human-quality beef mince when I see these remaindered and I'm sure he would also love chicken breasts but either of these served on a regular basis will work out pretty expensive! Try chicken wings, which he gets every day for breakfast. The bones in the wings are a source of calcium, good for teeth and firm up poops. Hold onto the chicken wing tip as you offer it if you think your dog might try just to gulp it down the first time. My pet shop also has inexpensive 1lb packets of frozen mince of various types (rabbit, chicken, lamb) which are convenient to try. Minced raw green tripe is especially popular here - very smelly, but also very beneficial, the vitamins from the half-digested cow stomach contents (eugh!) are easily absorbed. I have also given him remaindered pigs liver from the supermarket, liver is especially rich in iron but should not be fed too often - advice is that it should make up no more than 10% of the total diet I believe.

 

 

So, DocsDoc, do you freeze the wings, then thaw, and give to your greyhound raw? No concern about bone splinters? I'd like to hear more if you wouldn't mind sharing.

 

Thanks to all for their input.

[Trudy]

Most of the meat found on the chiller shelves in supermarkets and butchers' shops in the UK is fresh. If it has been frozen and then thawed before sale, it must bear a label which clearly states this, because it's bad practice to re-freeze most foods, especially those which are easily contaminated with bacteria.

 

Is that just Canada, or does that apply to the US too?

 

Freezing, thawing and freezing again is not considered good food safety practice.

Anything I've purchased that is not frozen at the supermarket will say if it has been previously frozen - this way I know to use within a few days or cook it and then freeze it.

[DocsDoctor]

QUOTE(DocsDoctor @ Nov 4 2007, 10:46 AM)

Yes, it's a good idea. Kills off any salmonella or other bugs that for humans would be destroyed by cooking.

 

 

I'm sorry, but freezing does NOT kill bacteria, they simply lie dormant until you thaw and then reproduce even faster.

 

Oops, sorry!

[DocsDoctor]

So, DocsDoc, do you freeze the wings, then thaw, and give to your greyhound raw? No concern about bone splinters? I'd like to hear more if you wouldn't mind sharing.

 

Yes, that's what I do. I hold each one up by the wingtip, Doc takes it by the other end, and crunches his jaws a few times before swallowing it down with considerable relish. Splinters shouldn't be a problem, raw chicken bones are actually pretty soft, though you should never serve cooked bones of any kind of course. The worst that may happen is that the dog if inexperienced tries to swallow the whole thing without crunching, then has to guck it up. In which case it will probably dive straight back in and start all over again!

 

Turkey necks also seem to be a popular for many US GT-ers, you might like to try a search of past topics for more information about those. I've not tried them myself as I've never seen them for sale over here.

 

Saw some raw meaty bones on sale in our local butchers for the first time recently, so next I want to try Doc on those!

[ahicks51]

When we buy in bulk, chicken necks, turkey necks, and beef heart all come with time and date stamps on them. Beef heart is frequently frozen for several weeks or often more than a month; necks are usually over three weeks.

 

Bovine neosporosis (Neosporum caninum) is a protozoan that the raw feeding community likes to say is killed after 48 hours of freezing, but I'd like to see some data that supports that assertion- something more authoritative than raw feeders quoting each other, anyway.

 

From Wikipedia, on fish:

 

"Freezing is often practiced to kill parasites. According to European Union regulations[2], freezing fish at -20°C (-4°F) for 24 hours kills parasites. The FDA recommends freezing at -35°C (-31°F) for 15 hours, or at -20°C (-4°F) for 7 days.[3]"

 

Some care must be taken with feeding too much fish because of thiaminase, which will destroy thiamine (B1) in the diet.

[silverfish]

Bovine neosporosis (Neosporum caninum) is a protozoan that the raw feeding community likes to say is killed after 48 hours of freezing, but I'd like to see some data that supports that assertion- something more authoritative than raw feeders quoting each other, anyway.

 

This good enough for you?

 

 

Source

 

Sorry about the format of the quote, the page wouldn't let me copy the text directly.

 

We know the temperature of the trial, but what we don't know, of course, is what the upper limit of the temperature would be. Most domestic freezers here operate at about -18C, but the 'fast freeze' tray of our freezer runs at about -26C, so I'm guessing blast freezing or other commercial freezing would be as cold, or colder - and therefore the meat should be free of viable neospora.

[BauersMom]

And here's an article that states Neospora were viable after cryofreezing to -60C.

 

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0022-3395...%3E2.0.CO%3B2-W

 

Tissue cysts were preserved with 7.5% dimethyl sulfoxide in horse serum at -60 C. After thawing, bradyzoites were digested in an acid/pepsin solution and placed onto Vero cell cultures. Neospora caninum tachyzoites were recovered from cell cultures, indicating that bradyzoites retained viability after concentration and cryopreservation. Separated tissue cysts ranged in diameter from 107 mm to 15 mm (average = 31 mm), and the average bradyzoite dimensions were 2 x 7.5 mm. These methods make it possible to store viable N. caninum tissue cysts for oral-infectivity trials and other studies.

 

 

Without seeing the full text, however, it's hard to say what the studies actually mean. Neither case is actually examining neospora in cattle or in freezing of food meat, either.

[silverfish]

BauersMom, I'd say the preserving with 7.5% dimethyl sulfoxide in horse serum was the important thing there. They WANTED to make sure they'd survive freezing in order to continue doing testing on them.

 

I ain't gonna be using dimethyl sulfoxide, I dunno about you.

[BauersMom]

BauersMom, I'd say the preserving with 7.5% dimethyl sulfoxide in horse serum was the important thing there. They WANTED to make sure they'd survive freezing in order to continue doing testing on them.

 

I ain't gonna be using dimethyl sulfoxide, I dunno about you.

 

Well, obviously! But it's not like mouse brains from mice treated with sodium sulfadiazine are something raw folks are feeding, either.

 

The other abstract states only one of the 3 isolates they were looking at survived, so I'm not about to make decisions based on either source, I'd actually like to see studies of food-grade meat in a domestic situation and the outcomes there.

[ahicks51]

I think the DMSO as a cryoprotectant is key.

 

But I'm glad there is primary literature that says they are susceptible to freezing. I was worried it was just a bunch of raw feeders parroting one another. Not that that ever happens.

[BrGreyhndz]

Freeze/thaw/Freeze is more a taste issue than food safety-unless of course you allow the meat to really warm up during the thaws.

 

As for freezing for parasites- it does not kill bacteria otherwise I would expect the government to insist that all of our meat was frozen to eliminate nasty food poisoning outbreaks. Some other types of parasites can be killed during a hard freeze for an extended period.

 

Most of what I feed my dogs has been frozen more because I buy in bulk than for any other reason. The parasites others have mentioned are certainly a concern and something that everyone should be aware of.