Awaiting Test Results-diarrhea

[Guest greyfiend]

So we adopted Filbert almost 8 weeks ago. Initially had him on Evo (high protein/no grain), then transitioned him to Innova-vet said he didn't need 42% protein. He's 5.5 years old and we walk about 2 miles per day. Has had mostly soft stools the whole time, although ocassinally a firmer stool. He moves his bowels 2 and sometimes 3 times per day (usually after a meal), has never had an accident inside and does not appear to have "urgency", just runny pudding consistency stool. It's not such a big deal, but it's difficult to clean up well. Both Evo & Innova have chicken & turkey as their primary protein & Innova also has cottage cheese and eggs, which could be causing sensitivities. Thought he might have sensitivities to those so perhaps a different protein, but haven't switched yet. Anyway, fecals done 3 weeks negative, but decided on a 10 day course of flagyl for possible Giardia. No change. Then added pumpkin to food-he LOVES it, but no change. Have removed all treats and just give kibble for treats thinking it could be something in the treats (I make sure it has no corn, soy, beef, is sourced/made in USA and organic if possible). Have tried both plain yogart and Fortiflora with limited results. Yesterday went in and got some Drontal Plus for all types of worms-just in case. Had blood drawn for complete blood count and chemistry-should get results by email later this afternoon as well as a SNAP Elisa test for Giardia. There are other tests which could be done-one is a test to see if his pancreas is producing enzymes used in digestion-this is another $136 or so. Tick titers/tests are quite a bit more-would run $300+. He seems like his usual self to me, however if he's been sick the entire time I wouldn't know the difference. His skin, ears, fur, etc. all look good with no "classic" signs of allergies per se.

 

So I need some wise opinions here. If today's labs come back normal, I'm thinking it would be a quick and easy thing to do to try a different food with a different protein source (perhaps lamb & rice) versus spending another hunk of money to immediately do more blood tests. Does this make sense? I just don't want to spend a boatload of $$$ if a simple change in diet might work, but on the other hand I don't want to miss somethng either.

Thanks,

Greyfiend

[Burpdog]

Try beef (Solid Gold Mmellenia)

 

How was his poops on EVO?

[Batmom]

If dog seems otherwise healthy and happy, save your $ and try some different foods.

 

In my experience -- others may differ! -- if the only issue is soft poop, it isn't a protein issue. It's a fat source, fat quantity, or other ingredient issue. You might try Purina ONE Sensitive Systems or the ProPlan equivalent (salmon version).

 

If the food doesn't work for the dog, take the bag back to the vendor and get your $ back.

[Burpdog]

Interesting thought....I have seen it though from lamb

[turbotaina]

Also, how much are you feeding? It's really easy to overfeed on Evo and get soft poop. It's very rich stuff.

 

Oh, and a TBD panel should not cost $300. NC State does a panel for about $90, plus whatever your vet charges to draw and ship.

[Guest taylorsmom]

He has been living with you 8 weeks, right? How long ago did he come off the track? I have heard that the transition from track food/life/stress can take quite some time, and show up in soft poops. Maybe he is still in that transition phase. My Taylor had soft poop the whole first 4 months we had her, I tried many many different foods, supplements, the only thing that helped was a colitis medication (Azulfidene). But I was determined not to keep her on medication for the rest of her life so I switched her over to raw and it was the first time she was able to have consistently great poops. She continues to have a loose stool here and there, and I think that is just the way her system works, but as long as she has mostly solid stool we are happy here.

[Guest greyfiend]

Filbert had his last race in November, 2005, returned to Oregon to be on a Greyhound farm (stud duties?), and around April, 2007 was taken by GPA and lived in a foster home for about 9 weeks or so before we adopted him. Regarding how much I feed...If he does not get around 2200 kcal/day he looses weight. He is very lean and could stand to gain 3 lbs. or so. He does gain weight if I feed him more. So someone mentioned that it could be the amount/type of fat he's getting. I've investigated a lot of dog foods and the ones with lower fat also have lower protein, and I'd like to keep his protein in the 22-27% range if possible. Not willing to do raw-want an excellent kibble. Have considered California Natural Lamb & Rice, Canidae, Timberwolf Organics, Solid Gold Hund-N-Flocken...

 

I don't know why I'm allowing myself to be so anxious. I'm normally a fairly pragmatic person. I guess it could be because I'm a new "Doggy Mama" and I want to make sure Filbert is not in any discomfort and that I am meeting his needs. Thanks for all the info. and support.

 

'fiend

[ahicks51]

While there can be medical causes to the runny stool, it's frequently dietary. If it clears up after 2-3 days on a raw diet, it's probably dietary.

 

We have a foster who has the same problem. We fix it by adding 1-2 tablespoons of beet pulp to every meal; he is fed kibble only. The relatively small amounts of beet pulp turn it from pudding to firm- it's remarkable.

 

You should be able to get beet pulp at any good farm supply store; it's commonly used as feed for ruminants. We get the pelletized stuff and break it up by hand (with shears- it's tough stuff) to the size of kibbles, or he eats around them. We've also powdered it in the blender- noisy, but it works. I understand there's also shredded stuff available.

 

Beet pulp and other fiber-rich feed components work by sopping up extra water in the gut; feces are 60-90% water, and anything over that pushes it into the realm of "pudding." I don't know if greys have particularly short intestines (as is implied by the greyhound "tuck"), but it seems they have issues de-watering the stool. Either the intestines are shorter, or they're less effective at removing moisture for whatever reason.

 

If pumpkin doesn't work, try beet pulp anyway. It's cheap and effective in my experience, and that related to me by others who have tried it.

[Guest mandm]

If it were me ( and I have been in exactly the same situation as you) I would wait to see if the Drontal + does anything. I believe it is hard on the stomach, so things may get worse before they get better. But parasites are the most likely cause of diarrhea and excessive calorie intake. They are relatively easy to fix, but not always so easy to find on a fecal.

 

High calorie needs could point to a fast metabolism (no problem), worms (easy to fix) or malabsorption, which is not so easy to fix. The pancreatic test could tell you if there is something more serious going on. I would get that if the worming doesn't work. And you can get a reasonably priced general greyhound tick panel for about $60 from Protatek in Chandler AZ. If your vet doesn't work with them, he can draw & prep the blood (should be less than $20) and then you can ship it yourself overnight to Protatek ( I'm guessing $25-$75, depending on how close to AZ you are located). I'd get the tick panel no matter what, but that's just me. I've had TBD greyhounds, so I'm a little paranoid.

 

Oh, I see you are on the west coast. Shipping to AZ should be cheap. It costs me $45. I'm in the Mdwest.

Edited August 30, 2007 by mandm

[Guest greyfiend]

Yeah...Filberts labs and chemistries are all NORMAL for a Greyhound! No giardia using the SNAP Elisa (very sensitive) and no parasites in the stool. I will take him tomorrow and get a TLI test done (with a few others-checking all of the "gut" stuff-not exactly sure on this). In the meantime vet wants me to give him a bland diet for a few days, so his bowels can "rest" esp. after the Drontal Plus. She suggested boiling ground beef, boiling potatoes in beef broth and mix 1 part meat to 4 parts potato just for a few days (this is not nutritionally complete). We're not using chicken because he may be sensitive to it (of course he could be sensitive to beef too). Overall for a diet change she recommended a novel protein (other than chicken and turkey) and potato as the source of carbos. The problem I'm having is finding a diet with no chicken/turkey and potatos with no grains. The ones I find are the real high protein (40%+) grain free like Evo and he doesn't need that much protein for his activity level-we're not doing agility, etc. Timberwolf Organics has one made of fish and potatos called Ocean Blue.

 

I'd appreciate any input on feeding fish as a primary source of protein in a dry kibble and ideas, experiences about a bland diet.

Anyway...such a relief. I'm still trying to figure out how to get some photos on here. I rarely upload photos to the internet, so will ask hubby to help.

 

Thanks,

Greyfiend

[Batmom]

Re fat: Most of the "high-end" foods that are touted as being "better" ... use vegetable oils. Canola oil and sunflower oil are favorites. If one of those is the first oil listed, I can pretty much forget about feeding it to my dogs unless I want to pick up liquid. Kinda difficult, that. My dogs tend to do better on animal fats. One of my dogs likes @ 12% fat, not more. The others can get up in the 18%-20% range with no problems.

 

If he's just having soft poop and not diarrhea, and he seems otherwise healthy, it's almost certainly a food issue.

 

Just a word of warning -- none of my dogs can eat potatoes in any quantity without getting the runs. One of them would also have soft poop on rice, and would vomit up noodles. Leading one to believe that one dog's "bland diet" is another's intestinal upset. One of my vets doesn't recommend "bland diets" any more, but I suspect he's in the minority. Old habits die hard ............

 

I'm telling you these things because I had a dog who had mushy poop and who vomited daily for 6 months. I spent hundreds of dollars on tests of various sorts. The tests proved I had a very healthy dog. I made up a spreadsheet of what I'd tried feeding him and what was the most different thing on the market ... picked up a food that all the food snobs and greyhound people said, "absolutely do not feed this! yuck!" ... and thereafter had a very healthy dog with decent poop, who no longer vomited every day.

 

Regarding weight: My little girl would not gain weight the first 6 months I had her. No matter what I fed. No matter how much. New Things In Life take calories.

[Guest mandm]

Perhaps you could increase the protein % of lowfat kibble by adding lean meat.

 

I have a dog with a touchy gut who I discovered could tolerate no carbs. His bland diet was cooked, lean meat with bone meal. That's all. I started with a meat/carb mixture and played around with the ratio to see what he tolerated best. Turned out it was no carbs at all. I eventually, reluctantly, switched him to raw.

 

Prior to this dog, I usually had good luck adding cooked meat to kibble for greyhounds with digestive problems.

 

How about a prescription, limited ingredient kibble?

 

Did he have this problem in the foster home?

[gracegirl]

I Delta with pudding poo for the first several months I had Grace too. First it was hookworm, then suspected Giardia (no test could confirm this, but all the neighborhood dogs had it) and then when her tick panel came back, she had a positive titer for Babesia. After treating her for the Babesia the squishy poop became solid. She started on several chicken based kibbles that also had corn in them. After those diets I switched to Eagle Pack Lamb and Rice (good, firm poo....too much quantity), and now she is on Canidae Lamb & Rice. I won't go back to any food with poultry (turkey also gives her the runs) or corn.

 

On another note, Fenway has always had solid poop. In wanting to find one that I liked the best for his adult life (he's still a puppy at 10.5 months old now) I tried several higher protein diets (Orijen, specifically)....and for the first time had pudding poo. Yuk! I'm now on Nature's Variety Prairie Beef kibble and I love it. I'm contemplating switching Grace over but I hesitate because she's been so great on the Canidae.

 

Don't hesitate to try a lower protein diet, despite other preconceived notions you may have. I though Fenway could use the extra protein, since he's young, but I got mushy poo instead. I'd say try a high end, moderate protein, moderate fat and Lamb, Beef, Duck or Fish diet....without corn. But I'm also no expert, just going with my experience here.

 

A tick panel is a good idea, regardless of any other health issues you might be having. I think $300 seems steep, but my adoption group does a low cost clinic 2 times a year, I think it's $90 for the 4 way panel. I'd think $125 to $150 would be more reasonable for a full panel.

Edited August 30, 2007 by gracegirl

[Guest IndyTwister]

When we went through this with Cayman we had good luck with Natural Balance Duck & Potato. The culprit ended up being Chicken - go figure the dog we adopt is the first that doesn't do well on Canidae. Since then Canidae has a lamb & rice version which he does great on.

[fionasmom]

When I first adopted Fiona she had pudding poo. She did have hookworms which took several treatments to finally get rid of. She still had the pudding after though. We tried several different kinds of food, even prescription dog food for a while. She did well on that but it was only available through the vet so not very convenient and expensive.

 

The primary advantage of the prescription food was a high fiber content. Another poster suggested beet pulp which will add fiber. For us, we finally settled on Iams; she likes it and her poos are much more firm.

[Guest greyfiend]

I took Filbert in this morning (he had fasted for 12 hours and was STARVING) for a blood draw for the TLI-pancreatic panel. I decided to try California Natural lamb & rice because it has a different protein source and only 1 grain and few ingredients. I already gave him some as a taste test and he loves it. I've decided to keep a list of what I've fed, their first several ingredients and protein/fat/fiber/carbs so that if there continues to be trouble I can at least try to analyze it. Now that it's written down I see that he has been on 3 different foods since 7-7-07 and today is 8-30-07! Poor baby. He was on Nutro ? at the foster home & was "free fed" so they could not tell me a thing about how much he ate or his poops. I started him on Evo because another Greyhound person recommended it. Vet said it had too much protein (42%) as did the book Greyhound for Dummies, so after 2 weeks on straight EVO I did a 4 week slow transition to Innova. He's only been on straight Innova (no Evo) for about 2 weeks. I read somewhere that it takes 6 weeks for "toxins" from food allergies/sensitivities to get out of the system (not sure if this is true). However I do see that I have not given his system much time to adjust to any of his new foods. I will stick with the Lamb & Rice for at least 6 weeks and reasses then. Also the vet said that if it was worms it will take about a week post medication to see an improvement in stool.

 

The folks at this new pet supply place appeared to be very knowledgeable and they said that very many customers complain of "soft stools" with both Evo & Innova-that the Rep. for these said it's because people "overfeed...the food is nutritionally dense". Well...I don't go by cups, I go by calories and if he gets less than about 1800 kcal/day he looses weight and he is on the very lean end of normal per the vet.

 

BTW, vet said to give him some boiled ground beef and boiled potatos in beef broth (1:4 meat:potato) and do you think this boy will even touch a potato? No Way

[ahicks51]

I read somewhere that it takes 6 weeks for "toxins" from food allergies/sensitivities to get out of the system (not sure if this is true).

 

It can take several weeks for severe allergies to clear the system such that symptoms disappear. And, of course, if the sensitizing agent is re-introduced in ANY quantity- back to square one.

 

If I can offer an opinion- I think the situation is being overanalyzed. Try something basic, like that which your vet has suggested- but instead of potatoes, use rice. So, a diet of boiled hamburger and cooked rice, mixed about 50:50. See if there is any improvement in the stool- if it's dietary, it should be apparent within 24-48 hours. Build on that.

 

Lots of greys come off the track and present with poorly de-watered stool. Some of these are due to parasites, some due to allergies- but most are due to the diet. Additional fiber in the form of pumpkin or beet pulp will result in improvement for a good portion of these animals. Drop me a PM (I think you have enough messages right now) if you'd like a box with some beet pulp to try.

[Guest Mags123]

When my grey came to stay he also had a very runny tummy. Tried a diet of mainly rice/pasta and slowly increased the amount of dry dog food however his tummy stayed pretty runny (rice almost seemed completely undigested sometimes). Then spoke to the lady who we adopted him from and what he gets now is a puppy mixer type food mixed with tuna, pork, chicken,veg, eggs, general leftovers etc. This works a treat and the improvement was almost instant (for some greys it seems that any dog food is too rich). In theory, the mixer should be combined with equal quantities of dog food though all the 'additions' serve just the same purpose and is much kinder on his sensitive stomach. I would give you the name of the food but I live in Scotland, though look out for a puppy mixer - it works a treat with my boy. Always worth a try.

[Guest MyCody]

Cody who is 11 has always had soft stools and probems with "D".Someone in here mentioned Solid Gold barking at the moon kibble which is grain free. I've been cooking for Cody and decided to add some of this to his cooked diet and I've never seen his stools as solid and less of them.

 

If I were you, I'd check with his vet about the ingredients , but I'm very happy with this food and Cody likes it.

 

 

Terry