Let Me Show You Why They Give Us Those Muzzles

[BauersMom]

Oh no! What happened?

 

Unmuzzled play turned ugly.

 

He's back with us and is doing fine. But it was an avoidable situation.

[seattlegreygirl]

Poor baby

[Guest LindsaySF]

Bump for the newbies.

 

 

[Guest DylanGospel]

I posted about this on the day that it happened, asking folks if they thought I could ever trust my hounds out in the yard without muzzles again. Now I am realizing how dangerously naive I was. Here are some pictures that I forgot I had taken on the day that it happened - my granddaughter had just arrived after school and went out to play with the gang...

 

Hi Judi,

 

Small world! we met you at GIG last month and spent some time talking. I finally made the connection that you are Carol's friend, as are we.

 

I read this post a LONG time ago and remembered the graphic pictures of what could happen in an instant. As a direct result of what you wrote, we have use the muzzles that come with the dogs. I can see how easily and innocently injuries such as this can happen. We also suggest this to new greyhound owners.

 

Thank you for posting this, and we enjoyed meeting you in Gettysburg. Give our new foster boy Niterider a hug before you send him off with Tom to meet up with us. (I'm not sure how many posts I still have to make before I can use the pm option on this board, or I would have written directly to you.)

 

Janet

[Guest ishapespace]

Muzzling has come up around here a bit more than usual recently, so I wrote in my blog about it. It's along the lines of the things mentioned in this post.

 

http://astherabbitruns.blogspot.com/

[Guest mowreyAZ]

The thread and all the information from this section has affirmed my growing dislikes of non- sectioned dog parks, and the now more frequent use of both muzzles for Bea and Amie- lynn. Over the past fews weeks, I've gotten more hostility, stares, and glares because i bring the girls to the parks. For the past two years I've never placed a muzzle on Amie more than twice- once for a hound only play- date and the other time to do her nails with the dremel for the first time. But she has gotten progressively mouthier when she plays, regardless of other dogs her size or little dogs. It may have do with her strong protective instinct and her love of clicking and chomping when she gets excited. She did this to a small dog owner in the past two months whose small dog stood on her hind legs and batted her mouth. I wrote a letter to the Animal Control officer's because the same owner is also belligerant, lonely and taking medication for depression and pratically broadcasted her dislike of my dog and her current medical condition. All she did was click twice at her for stopping her playtime.

 

So I started taking the dogs in the morning and only in mornings to the public park areas. Plus with the heat in the summer it's the only reasonable time to take Bea and Amie- lynn with their delicate skin and heat rash. PS- thank you ishapespace for the information on your blog and your insight. Everyone has been super helpful and honest. And it does depend on the dog and the situation.

[Guest LindsaySF]

Muzzling has come up around here a bit more than usual recently, so I wrote in my blog about it. It's along the lines of the things mentioned in this post.

 

http://astherabbitruns.blogspot.com/

Nice post.

 

 

Lines worth repeating:

 

No, none of my dogs are aggressive, but they are dogs. With dogs, stuff happens.

The muzzle is not a bad thing. The hound might not be thrilled, but it isn't going to kill them and it is way better, and cheaper, than a trip to the e-vet and stitches!

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

 

[Guest ishapespace]

Thanks. It's just a discussion I have heard a good bit lately and I thought it was worth writing about.

[Guest luvdogs]

I use the muzzle when she runs with another dog or in a fenced area, even if she is alone...it seems to get her in the "mood" to run!

[KF_in_Georgia]

My guys are muzzled when I'm not home. (They pretty much have the run of the house.) They're also muzzled when we go to PetSmart; they're both a bit high-prey.

 

I live in a condo and have no yard, so the guys are leashed on all trips outside--not muzzled. And in the car, one rides in back, one in the front; on occasions when they've both had to ride in the back, they've both been muzzled.

 

Of course, Jacey has some cartilage damage and is missing the tip of one ear from a run-in she had in the adoption kennel...when she and her opponent were both muzzled. How she managed to get that ear where the other dog could grab it...

Edited July 9, 2009 by KF_in_Georgia

[Guest sorenkkg]

wow, these are some scary stories but good for people to read and absorb.

 

Just to answer the poll (I put other):

 

we muzzle when being introduced to a new dog/greyhound in a closed area (i.e. for greysitting)

we muzzle at greyhound playgroup

 

we bring muzzles with us whenever we're in the car (the muzzle live in the car), and I know anything can happen at any time, but we don't muzzle when they play in the yard together or with us-- we watch and usually participate (most yard play is Fetch) and they rarely interact with each other... and if they do, we call it off.

We only have 2, and I know how quick they are (I've previously posted about their high prey drive).

So far, so good, I guess... plan for the worst, hope for the best.

[JaneW]

I never muzzle Greta because she is never in an off-leash situation with other greys,and rarely with other dogs (only my sister's mutts, who stay away from Greta when they are outside together).

[Guest KennelMom]

Of course, Jacey has some cartilage damage and is missing the tip of one ear from a run-in she had in the adoption kennel...when she and her opponent were both muzzled. How she managed to get that ear where the other dog could grab it...

 

Oh, ears are easy to get through muzzles b/c they're so flappy. Damage can still be done through a muzzle, esp if one dog is pinned.

[Sundrop]

We muzzled our boy for the first couple of weeks when we first got him when our two were home alone. Our girl had no interest in playing/running/competing for toys of any kind in the yard - but we always supervise them when they're outside. Once we got to know our boy's personality and how our two interacted with each other, we started taking the muzzle off. His problem was getting bored and trying to eat anything within his reach - so we learned how to doggie-proof EVERYTHING really quick.

 

So - it's really not just about what your greys/dogs will do to each other -- it's what they can get into when you're not home!

 

In four and a half years, we never had one issue between our two and they were never muzzled after that initial first couple of weeks. Our boy learned that our girl was never going to play with him and he quickly learned that toys were way more fun than she was - and she doesn't have a dominant bone in her body, so anything he wanted that she had - he got without a struggle from her. Though, he wasn't very dominant either, so it worked out wonderfully.

 

However, since our boy recently passed - if we get another grey while our girl is still with us, we will muzzle until we feel comfortable. If we never feel comfortable...we'll always muzzle.

[Beautybabe]

Another benefit of getting them used to muzzling in retirement--even if you only have one greyhound--when they have stitches, dressings, splints, etc. the muzzle can be a helpful to discourage chewing and licking, especially at night.

[Guest LindsaySF]

Another benefit of getting them used to muzzling in retirement--even if you only have one greyhound--when they have stitches, dressings, splints, etc. the muzzle can be a helpful to discourage chewing and licking, especially at night.

Ditto. Especially with the poop cup.

 

 

[Guest Elaine]

I voted "Other" and it asked for an explanation. So....

 

Our hounds, all of them, are muzzled whenever they are outside without supervision.

They are usually not muzzled in the car, but, sometimes they are if they are being rambunctious.

 

Elaine @ DM Greyhounds

http://www.dmgreyhounds.net

[Guest LindsaySF]

Bump for the newbies.

 

 

[Guest Ashley]

perhaps sticky this?

[Guest RWM]

I just glanced at the statistical breakout of this poll and, while close, the greatest percentage of those who voted have never muzzled their greys. That's where I stand.

 

While I think there is a utility to muzzling, I think it is overblown and not nearly as effective, or necessary, as it might seem.

 

I have two hounds, both of which were cut while they were boarded. On both occasions, there were other dogs around. Both incidents required multiple stitches. Ironically, I was never able to determine how either incident happened. There is reason to believe that with respect to at least one of those incidents, it was not caused by a bite, but was likely triggered by the aggression of another dog. The other incident may, or may not, have been caused by a bite, but I really cannot say. At the speed with which these incidents occur, it is often hard to determine the cause ... tooth, nail, or something else. It's natural, and perhaps too easy, to assume that it was caused by a bite. But that might not be the case.

 

Clearly, a lot of these incidents can be attributable to bites but in many incidents, they are not. Dogs can snag themselves while moving at speed and, given the sensitivity of their skin, gashes can happen, not necessarily caused by a tooth.

 

Having read the thread, it is surprising how little attention has focused on claws. Lots of folks have their hounds' nails clipped, but not dremmeled to round off sharp edges. A grey's claws, particularly when moving at high speed, are like knives, and they can inflict a gash as easily as a tooth, especially when a thin-skinned grey is on the receiving end. And those kinds of contacts are often unintentional and probably more attributable to the proximity of one dog to another when running in packs as opposed to an act of aggression.

 

So, it seems to me that muzzling is not the panacea it may appear to be. A watchful and alert human eye is more effective than a muzzled grey. JMHO.

[Guest LindsaySF]

I just glanced at the statistical breakout of this poll and, while close, the greatest percentage of those who voted have never muzzled their greys.

I'd be interested to know what percentage of people that never muzzle have ended up at the e-vet for wounds of "unknown origin" requiring stitches? It seems like a lot of people still won't muzzle despite being at the vet for bad wounds on multiple occasions.

 

 

I have two hounds, both of which were cut while they were boarded. On both occasions, there were other dogs around. Both incidents required multiple stitches. Ironically, I was never able to determine how either incident happened. There is reason to believe that with respect to at least one of those incidents, it was not caused by a bite, but was likely triggered by the aggression of another dog.

If it wasn't a bite what do you think it was? Do you think they aggressively pawed at each other or something? I'm not trying to be snarky, honest, but I don't understand how another dog's aggression would result in a wound requiring multiple stitches if no actual teeth were involved.

 

 

The other incident may, or may not, have been caused by a bite, but I really cannot say. At the speed with which these incidents occur, it is often hard to determine the cause ... tooth, nail, or something else. It's natural, and perhaps too easy, to assume that it was caused by a bite. But that might not be the case.

Very true, might be caused by a bite, might not be. But why take the chance? It could be caused by teeth, so you should muzzle. It could be caused by nails, so you should dremel (as you said). It could be caused by branches from trees, so you should cut them back. Why would you not muzzle because it "might" be caused by something else?

 

 

Clearly, a lot of these incidents can be attributable to bites but in many incidents, they are not. Dogs can snag themselves while moving at speed and, given the sensitivity of their skin, gashes can happen, not necessarily caused by a tooth.

Very true, I agree with you there. IMO some people have dangerous items in their yards that don't mix well with a thin-skinned Greyhound (tree branches, wires sticking out from the fence, etc). Muzzling won't help that.

 

 

Having read the thread, it is surprising how little attention has focused on claws. Lots of folks have their hounds' nails clipped, but not dremmeled to round off sharp edges. A grey's claws, particularly when moving at high speed, are like knives, and they can inflict a gash as easily as a tooth, especially when a thin-skinned grey is on the receiving end.

Not all dogs use their feet while playing, but I agree that sharp nails are an often underlooked issue. I think Kennelmom said something similar somewhere in this thread.

 

 

And those kinds of contacts are often unintentional and probably more attributable to the proximity of one dog to another when running in packs as opposed to an act of aggression.

It is a common misconception that all bites/nips while dogs are running are acts of "aggression". Sometimes it is aggression or competitiveness, but more often it is actually a playful nip or a purely accidental tooth snag as they run alongside each other with their mouths open. Muzzles are not just to prevent pack fights or dogs picking on each other, they also prevent pure accidents and play getting too rough.

 

 

A watchful and alert human eye is more effective than a muzzled grey.

I agree that muzzling is not a complete substitute for watching/monitoring your dogs. However, you said it yourself, these things happen fast. ("At the speed with which these incidents occur, it is often hard to determine the cause ...") If they occur too fast to even see what happened, how on earth will you be able to prevent an incident just by watching? Chances are you will have a wound needing stitches before you even realize what has happened, even if you are watching the entire time.

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2009 by LindsaySF

[Guest RWM]

I'd be interested to know what percentage of people that never muzzle have ended up at the e-vet for wounds of "unknown origin" requiring stitches? It seems like a lot of people still won't muzzle despite being at the vet for bad wounds on multiple occasions.

 

Probably a lot. But that doesn't mean that muzzling is the solution, particularly if you don't know what caused the injury.

 

If it wasn't a bite what do you think it was? Do you think they aggressively pawed at each other or something? I'm not trying to be snarky, honest, but I don't understand how another dog's aggression would result in a wound requiring multiple stitches if no actual teeth were involved.

 

In one instance, because of the location of the gash, which was on my grey's under-belly, with no evidence of a puncture wound, I believe it was caused by my grey trying to get away from another dog (parenthetically, a pit bull terrier with some aggressive traits), jumping over a picket fence type barrier set up in a doorway, and getting hung up. In the other incident, I'm not sure if it was caused by a tooth, a claw, a protruding nail, a branch from a tree or thorn bush, or a sharp object on the ground. Take a look at the injury, where there is no evidence of a puncture wound, and which is about ten inches long but, fortunately, not very deep. Can you tell me what caused it? I don't think you can, nor could the e-vet.

 

 

Take a look at the injury to Charmsmom's grey on p. 5 of the thread, which apparently happened when her hounds were doing zoomies. Can you be sure that injury resulted from a tooth as opposed to a claw? I don't think you can. There's no evidence of a puncture wound. Yet, the presumed solution to the the incident is muzzling Charmsmom's hound or some other hound. The system works only if everyone muzzles their hounds, which is not likely to happen. Otherwise, the system is flawed.

 

Very true, might be caused by a bite, might not be. But why take the chance? It could be caused by teeth, so you should muzzle. It could be caused by nails, so you should dremel (as you said). It could be caused by branches from trees, so you should cut them back. Why would you not muzzle because it "might" be caused by something else?

 

I'm not against muzzling. I just don't think it's the solution to a lot of the problems causing the concern. The dog park example comes to mind. Sure, you can muzzle your greys when you take them to a dog park, but that doesn't cure the problem. Having had experience at dog parks, I'm more concerned about my greys getting bitten than I am about the likelihood that my greys will bite or nip other dogs. It's unlikely that my greys will bite other dogs, but it is not unlikely that other dogs at the park will bite my greys. In my area, it's uncommon to see dogs with muzzles at dog parks. So, how does muzzling my greys prevent the possibility that they will be bitten or nipped?

 

I agree that muzzling is not a complete substitute for watching/monitoring your dogs. However, you said it yourself, these things happen fast. ("At the speed with which these incidents occur, it is often hard to determine the cause ...") If they occur too fast to even see what happened, how on earth will you be able to prevent an incident just by watching? Chances are you will have a wound needing stitches before you even realize what has happened, even if you are watching the entire time.

 

I still believe that a vigilant eye, and some common sense, is the best protection against the possibility of an injury. Just because your hound is muzzled, that doesn't mean an accident can't or won't occur. There are too many other variables.

 

I believe that muzzling is appropriate and wise under certain circumstances, but not nearly as many circumstances as you would think!

 

I could also argue that muzzling is like applying a bandaid ... it masks the problem. It might be more effective to deal with the problem in other, better, more effective ways. For instance, if you know that turning out your greys en masse can result in a pack mentality and the dogs become more aggressive with one another, then turn them out in smaller numbers, or keep them separated. Sometimes, your conspicuous presence, as opposed to your conspicuous absence, makes the difference between an injury and no injury! I'd venture that lots of folks feel that their muzzled greys are safe and secure with each other, but I'm not sure that's the case. JMHO.

Edited September 17, 2009 by RWM

[Guest LindsaySF]

Take a look at the injury, where there is no evidence of a puncture wound, and which is about ten inches long but, fortunately, not very deep. Can you tell me what caused it? I don't think you can, nor could the e-vet.

Is this the wound you think was caused by the picket fence, or the other one?

 

 

Take a look at the injury to Charmsmom's grey on p. 5 of the thread, which apparently happened when her hounds were doing zoomies. Can you be sure that injury resulted from a tooth as opposed to a claw? I don't think you can. There's no evidence of a puncture wound.

FYI, not all dog bites (involving Greys anyway) result in puncture wounds. I think that is a common misconception. If the tooth hits the skin just right, especially if the dogs are moving/running, the skin actually tears and you are left with a gash, NOT a puncture. Punctures are more common in breeds with thicker skin, thin-skinned Greys are more prone to gashes/tears. Look at the pictures in this thread (including the ones known to be caused by bites), puncture wounds are not always present.

 

 

The system works only if everyone muzzles their hounds, which is not likely to happen. Otherwise, the system is flawed.

This has been addressed before (in many threads on this forum, but also post #112 in this thread). If you muzzle one, you must muzzle all.

 

 

The dog park example comes to mind. Sure, you can muzzle your greys when you take them to a dog park, but that doesn't cure the problem. Having had experience at dog parks, I'm more concerned about my greys getting bitten than I am about the likelihood that my greys will bite or nip other dogs. It's unlikely that my greys will bite other dogs, but it is not unlikely that other dogs at the park will bite my greys. In my area, it's uncommon to see dogs with muzzles at dog parks. So, how does muzzling my greys prevent the possibility that they will be bitten or nipped?

It doesn't. This has been addressed in this thread already (post #195). Greyhound playgroups where ALL dogs are muzzled are the safest option. If people do choose to go to dog parks with other breeds you should not muzzle your Grey(s) unless all of the other dogs are muzzled too. If only the Greys are muzzled they can't defend themselves.

 

 

Greyhounds aren't the only ones that can/should be muzzled. You can buy basket muzzles for other breeds (this was mentioned earlier in this thread as well). Usually it takes a little longer to get them acclimated to wearing a muzzle though. They are not used to muzzles like retired racing Greyhounds are.

 

 

 

 

I could also argue that muzzling is like applying a bandaid ... it masks the problem. It might be more effective to deal with the problem in other, better, more effective ways. For instance, if you know that turning out your greys en masse can result in a pack mentality and the dogs become more aggressive with one another, then turn them out in smaller numbers, or keep them separated.

I agree with you that muzzles are sometimes used as a band-aid in cases where other management options would be better suited.

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

 

 

[Guest RWM]

Take a look at the injury, where there is no evidence of a puncture wound, and which is about ten inches long but, fortunately, not very deep. Can you tell me what caused it? I don't think you can, nor could the e-vet.

Is this the wound you think was caused by the picket fence, or the other one?

 

The other one. A friend of mine was caring for my two. Six greys playing in the back yard. No fighting involved. We couldn't figure if it was caused by a tooth, a claw, a branch or a nail. It happened in a flash, out of nowhere.

Edited October 1, 2009 by RWM

[Guest KennelMom]

Nails can DEFINITELY do damage!!