PaddysDad
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On 7/23/2020 at 10:46 PM, GreyTzu said:
Just for follow-up information, I received my order from PetsMegaStore today. I placed the order om July 2nd. I am very pleased with the shipping time, especially considering the crap happening now. I knew it might take longer, but still placed the order.
As usual, excellent service and a happy customer.
That's great to know. Thanks.
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I did get my other heart/hookworm meds from petsuppliesexpress (UK) in a reasonable time and they are also overseas. I have also received packages recently from Asia including through Singapore and Hong Kong. Maybe I have just been lucky that the delays on every other package have been reasonable. These guys seem to have taken their entire customer service offline and are unresponsive. Regardless, for whatever reason, they are no longer dependable in my experience and I have recommended them to others for years.
Are you still having the long term hook issues, or are these with new dogs? We ended up having to do one more course of prison protocol, but have now been clean for three tests since last year. The older dog has been fine with just the HG+ (now purchased elsewhere).
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Hi, just a warning to members about Pet Shed, who I have used and recommended for years, including here on the hookworm threads.
They used to be Australia based and shipped to US from the UK. Now they appear to ship from Singapore or Hong Kong (if they in fact do even ship at all).
The web has been full of complaints about them for months from customers who have paid for meds and not received them and have been been given the runaround about refunds if they can get a hold of anyone there at all. My experience is over 6 weeks and still processing for shipping according to the tracking email I got back when I ordered. I tried calling what used to be good customer service and just got a dead end recording. No person answers the chat box, and the email and support ticket route just connects you to a page with a broken link to no ticket and no information.
Recent customer reviews have said that there are no responses. Older reviews say that PS was telling people to wait up to 90 days, but people were still not getting product or refunds. Hopefully the 90 day thing is not just a stall to put people past their credit card dispute window, or to a point where they just fold up and take your money. Or maybe I am off base and their entire staff quit months ago and they are doing the best they can.
I suspect now that they are not the same company and someone else is controlling their web domain since there is no customer contact anymore. This is clearly not the same company that I have dealt with for years. Hopefully I am wrong, but in the absence of a response from them, I have filed with my credit card company.
Be warned.
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On 10/7/2019 at 3:35 PM, Bizeebee said:
We did the as-written Prison Protocol for 6mo and are hook free since early this year. If I was to do it again I think I'd do Coraxis instead of AM (same active ingredient) so that I could also use a tick preventer that wasn't a collar. Lots of people like the amended version(s) that are a little less intense; we didn't want to mess around.
We also did the prison program to the letter and have kept her on the Advocate/Advantage Multi monthly since the negative test. So far all is good. We had a relapse early in the process, which is why we kept her on the Advocate this time. No problem with ticks, so the advocate works fine. The other one is back on generic Heartguard Plus and no issues there either. I would also advise to follow the prison protocol to the letter, although there is really no difference noted between the use of Drontal Plus or Panacur (or whatever brand name for the fenbendazole) if used according to the prison schedule. I think the timing and the Moxidectin are the key on successful treatment.
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I am interested to hear about the greyhounds who have/had life long hooks and how the owners manage them. Were the greys lives shortened significantly due to hookworm complications? If so, what were they?
My grey has had the crap de wormed out of her since 2017. So now what?? I have had long discussions with our vet. Still no understanding of when and how often to de worm when its been so long. It is naive to think that when a greyhound has had hooks for most of their life that they could ever really rid of them. A grey will always have them, so how is it safe or effective to keep de worming when it isnt getting rid of the hooks completely? If the deworming isn't as often will they just get out of control again?
I just saw a small amount of blood in my greys stool after she has been having good formed ones. I really dont get it. Used and alternated Panacur/Safeguard, Drontal Plus, Strongid, & Advantage Multi. Followed the prison protocol...so many questions and no answers...
I think it all depends on how bad the larval leak situation is. The worse it is, the longer it takes to rid the body of all those resident eggs. We seem to have beaten them with the prison protocol, and are now back on just monthly HG+ to keep them in check after running the Advantage Multi/Advocate once a month for an additional few months after we got the all clear.
Once the hooks have been identified as being "resistant" to the traditional treatments, I haven't heard of anyone being able to clear them without using the prison protocol.
I don't know that Panacur is any less or more effective than Drontal, and have used both, but the schedule and use of the Advantage Multi seems to be a must. So does picking up the poop as soon as it hits the ground to reduce any environmental factor.
There have also been some cases where untreated dogs were so full of adult hooks that the dogs hemorrhaged. I have heard about one case locally from a vet, and another from a member here who lost a new greyhound.
Oh the iams green bag is what I meant, not purina. They changed the formula after we got our first bag, so the second bag was awful. I wonder how many here are still having good luck with it. For Percy, I *think* the culprit is fruit. It's like the last ingredient, but any food with blueberries or something like that tends to give him pudding poop.
We are still using the green bag minichunks here for Paddy, but his sister stopped eating it cold one day. I'm not sure if it was due to a recipe change or an association to medication that she was on at the time, but it was still working well for them until then, and stiil good for him now.
I hate when they change formulas. Mars is especially bad for this.
i always read up on all the hookworm post and it just hit me that one big medical post about protocol and clean up and resources would be a good subject in the section where blood values and other medical info is listed. i've sent the prison protocol to friends and it was a PITA locating it.
There are a few pages in this thread that list the links to the protocol and to the medication sources. One of those would make a good sticky for the health section.
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She is feeling much better after the Panacur, but she came from a farm in Alabama and was a broodie, so I feel like we should be doing the Prison Protocol for the best chance of getting rid of the hooks.
The prison protocol is the only thing that worked for us, and after a year, I only wish that we knew about it in the beginning and didn't waste a few months with the standard hook treatment.
We have introduced a few vets to it and numerous adopters.
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Haven't noticed any irritability or aggression while on any of the meds, but drontal makes her nauseous, and even Advatage Multi kills her appetite for a couple of days. No reaction at all to panacur.
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It would appear that the Prison Program protocol has worked! Lola has had 2, consecutive negative fecals. The vet asked me to bring her "a huge chunk of poop" for this last test to make sure that it was not a false negative. I brought her two vials of poop from two different 'deposits'. We return next month for vaccinations. I'll be bringing another couple of vials -full for testing. Only took 18 months to eradicate the devil worms! Sheesh!
Congrats!!! That is big news after a long battle.
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For those who have given Drontal Plus- do you split up the dose between two meals, or give it all at once with breakfast/dinner? We're about to give our first dose, he had it when he was in foster care, though I don't know how he reacted to it.
Also- did you see any improvement after the first dose? We had been treating with panacur, and he would improve after a course of that, but would then decline again (in terms of poop quality
)We split the dose, giving each half (buttered) just before feeding each meal. She is queasy the next day, but shows improvement by the day after that. Splitting the dose makes all the difference for her being able to tolerate it.
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Just want to thank PaddysDad for the butter-coated Drontal with a butter chaser idea. That worked! Percy's had two doses of Drontal now (two weeks apart) followed by Advantage Multi. Fingers crossed. Will have him tested in a couple more months. I have 4 more doses, so two more months and then we'll see.
You are very welcome. I wish I had figured that out two dogs ago.
So far so good here. We haven't retested yet, but everything seems ok so far. she is on Advantage Multi monthly now and he is back on HG+.
As a side note, she quit eating her food because we think she associated it with the sick feeling from the medication, so we switched her to Iams minichunk, which she loves. Paddy just finished transitioning to it and both are doing extremely well on it. << Obligatory dog owner poop comment. Having it available in a 50lb bag at Sams is an added bonus.
May your new year be negative for hooks and positive in all other things.
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We had a dog with chronic anal gland issues who would fuss until they were manually expressed. Soft stool can contribute to this, since firm stool will express the glands and keep them from filling up and becoming infected (smelly goo). She may just need her glands emptied, then with no worms and firm stool, things should run smoothly.
Hope it is a true negative for you.
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or salted water if you don't have peroxide. but, why don't you have peroxide? Pick up some styptic powder while you are picking some peroxide up
It is good to have the instructions handy. Your vet may even have a hand out telling what to do and how to do it in case of emergency. I had to write them down in a panic while on the phone with my vet years ago.
Great advice and a good reminder, Sobesmom.
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I think if the hooks are environmental, meaning ongoing REinfestation rather than ongoing infestation, as from larval leak, then maintenance from a "preventative" and periodic treatment is the traditional approach. If it is larval leak, then the traditional approach doesn't seem to do the job, and may cause the problem to worsen by continuing at a rate that more eggs get laid than adults get killed off.
I am not a vet nor do I claim to be one.
However, my vet's approach was the same as yours. At first. Now his whole office is following the prison protocol once the traditional methods prove to be ineffective.
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It's tough, people are less likely to talk about things that work, and then it feels like all you read is about when it doesn't.
Usually the case
I think that the Drontal and Panacur (Safeguard) probably work equally well on the hooks when used with the Advantage Multi (Advocate) on the prison program dosing schedule. If your dog tolerates Drontal reasonably well, then why not follow the prison protocol to the letter and just use the drontal, even if you have to break up the daily dose into two or three meals.
Couple notes: I am not a big fan of crushing pills. If the dogs do not like the taste, it is hard to hide that in a powdered pill, and the entire meal may get rejected. Plus it is hard to tell how much of the med was ingested and what the additional makeup dose should be. I personally have found that just breaking the pill in half and covering it with butter followed by another blob of butter or a cookie (to encourage them to swallow the buttered pill without chewing/tasting) works well here with both dogs.
I see "Advantage" referred to above. I hope this is referring to Advantage Multi (Advocate if from overseas) and not the regular Advantage, both made by Bayer.
Good luck to all still fighting the fight. I hope that I am not one of you still. Still haven't got consecutive negatives, but all seems clear so far.
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True, not exactly to the letter, but I meant the timing, as compared to the three week cycle the vet had me on.
I went drontal - panacur - drontal just because she doesn't tolerate drontal very well, and I had the panacur powder already.
We also had a negative before, so I did a second month of advantage multi/advocate on the two week cycle, before starting monthly advantage multi/advocate.
I won't completely rest on this until I get a second negative, about 4 weeks after her now monthly treatment.
Sorry to hear about Percy. To be that high after all that treatment. Wow.
I do not know about non pill drontal, but there is a pill form drontal and a drontal plus, which also does tape work. The regular old drontal may be easier on Percy, and you might try splitting the dose up.
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Thanks for the heads up
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Wow, time flies when you are having so much fun
After testing positive again, We did the prison protocol starting Sept 1, and we did it to the letter, and not on the three week cycle that my vet had recommended.
She got Drontal Plus on the 1st, then Advantage Multi (Advocate) the next day (Drontal makes her nauseous and kills her appetite, so I split the dosage up).
She got Panacur powder for three days starting on the 14th, then Advantage Multi (Advocate) on the 4th day.
She got Drontal Plus on Oct 1st, then Advantage Multi (Advocate) the next day (Split the Drontal dosage into two servings again)
On Oct 15th, another Advantage Multi (Advocate), but no other dewormer
On Nov 1st, another Advantage Multi (Advocate), but no other dewormer
On Nov 15th, another Advantage Multi (Advocate), but no other dewormer
Nov 30th, tested negative.
Advantage Multi (Advocate) monthly starting tomorrow. Will retest again in a couple months or if symptomatic again.
If all good in a couple months, it will be back to HeartGuard Plus, because the larval leak cycle will definitely be broken.
ONE YEAR.
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Great news for you both!
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I use butter to coat the pills with both dogs and so far it works great. Sometimes they just get butter to throw them off, like if one dog is getting a butter coated pill the other one will just get a blob of butter.
Once the dog gets a strong taste and resistance to a pill, it is almost impossible to get them to take it without manually pilling.
So far it has worked on everything including drontal which she barely tolerates.
Thanks for the update on the prison protocol. I may run this session on a 2 week schedule for Sept 1/15/30.
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Yeah, i think by the end of my post, I had come up with the same thing you did.
Your post looks almost as confusing as mine.So it should be at least close
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Thanks. I'm copying the relevant part here:
PaddysDad, how did you get the 1.1ml per 5lbs of dog figure?
This site says "According to Susan Stack, (see reference below) a veterinarian practicing in Yuma, Arizona, cattle Safeguard is exactly the same product as horse Panacur suspension (10% Fenbendazole), and both are also made by the same manufacturer (Hoechst). The canine dose of the horse Panacur suspension is 1 cc per 4 pounds given daily for three days. This means a 60 pound greyhound gets 15 cc,"
Your calculation would be 60lbs/5=12*1.1= 13.20.
Do you know/remember where you got your calculation?
The bottle itself says it's 100mg/ml, which is .1 gram/ml. The panacur powder dose is 8 grams for a 70lb dog, which (according to the panacur box) is 222mg/g of actual medicine. So 222mg/g*8g=1776 mg. 776mg/100= 17.76ml. If I do this same calc for a 60lb dog, I'm back to PaddysDad's calculation or thereabouts. (222*6g panacur=1332mg. 1332/100=13.2.)
I guess there's a range on the powdered panacur. 61-80lbs gets 8grams of panacur powder. So I guess variations in the liquid dose don't matter too much. I think I'm thinking too much and doing too much math.
I had a pack of powdered Panacur or Safeguard at the time and calculated the amount of Fenbendazole in the correct dosage for my dog. I then converted that amount of Fenbendazole into the proper dosage of the liquid for a 60 lb dog and for an 80 lb dog as validation, then broke it down into 5lb increments. It looks like you did the same above. The 1.1 isn't exact, but it is to the tenth and my 58lb grey is getting 13 ml of the liquid. I also found another calculation online that was almost identical, but a bit more ballparked, at 1, which might shortchange a heavier dog. Greys and goats do not take the same dosage, so the instructions on the bottle are invalid for greys. Differences may be based on how big of a range the dosage covers (70-75lbs, vs 60-80lbs) on the source material. I tried to be reasonably accurate, but I am open to correction.
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We, we just tested a low positive again, so we are going back on the three week cycle again. Negative at the end of June, so July 1 AdMulti was at 3 weeks, and then Aug 1 AdMulti was back to monthly. Positive again today at about 4 weeks out and just prior to the next dose on Saturday.
Advantage Multi today and Drontal Plus tomorrow for her, repeat in 3 weeks again, test again 3 weeks past that (6 weeks out) and repeat if necessary.
The boy gets the same but with panacur instead of drontal, because he takes the liquid panacur better than her over the three days. Plus it will be interesting to see if one performs better than the other.
Gradually the host will run out of eggs, but the number of eggs or severity of the infection will determine the length of treatment.
I hope this is true. When we first started treating her, she bled a lot in her stool. By the end, she had no blood on the final rounds. This apparently was a good sign because it indicated that there were fewer adult hooks in her pumping in blood thinning agents and then detaching when killed.
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Everything seems good here with both of them, We retest the new one next Friday. The vet says to retest at between three and four weeks since the last treatment to give the hooks time to come back if they are still there. There are no noticeable signs like there were last time they returned and both dogs are still on the Advantage Multi monthly.
I am not as put off by the Advantage Multi as I was with Frontline or Advantix. It doesn't seem to stay a s oily as long or bother the dogs as much. I may pick up another box before going back to the chewable just to be safe even if I get another all clear. The adoption agency is still treating and streeting unfortunately. There is too much pressure to just move the dogs these days.
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Once it is healed, they carry on as if it was never there.
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Pet Shed
in Health and Medical discussion
Posted · Edited by PaddysDad
One last point after speaking with my credit card company today:
Petshed is telling all the people who bought off them to wait 90 days now before doing anything, and that if it goes 90 days they will refund you. The rep at the CC company confirmed that this was when the dispute window closes, as I suspected and mentioned above in the OP. He called this a definite "red flag" that PS was telling people to wait a full 90 days.
My Petsupplies Express order did only take 4 weeks (Advocate/Advantage Multi for the other dog within the same time frame. I did miss the period that they were having a buggy website, so everything went through fine and the shipping only took an extra week and a half (they normally only take 2-2.5 weeks).
I will probably check out the PetsMegaStore for the next round.
On the plus side, we have been hook free for a year now, so I don't have to buy all that other dewormer and yard spray