MaryJane

I can only speak for myself but, I did not mean to imply that you were not a caring owner or will not do what is necessary to help you pet. What I did mean to say and will state again is that this has gone on quite long at this point with symptoms of choking and then moving to weakness which could signal some major medical issue (for example - could be too high protein which is causing kidney issues). The fact that you are feeding raw is another issue only because everyone gets so defensive about it -- for example, if the vet recommended stopping raw then everyone would be on that recommendation as "not understanding raw". Sometimes, it is just what it is ... Yes, I understand it is tough going to the vet for issues and sometimes they don't have all the answers and it costs money but, it is better to go early and spend less than wait to long and have the costs multiply beyond a reasonable point. I used to work for a vet decades ago and many people would wait too long to go to the vet and then they either had to euthanize the pet or spend thousands. That taught me to get to the vet earlier rather than later so I would have more options. For a certain symptom like diarrhea, you could wait maybe three days but, if the symptoms start cascading like it's bloody diarrhea and vomiting then you need to get in ASAP. In this case, the choking that you mentioned is hard to say how serious it is (IMHO I would have made appointment to vet but, that's me and I am a worrier) but, when it now starts to present with other symptoms like weakness then the situation becomes an ASAP to vet. Again, I mean no insult on your abilities as a pet owner. You are getting hit with quite a bit .. you're pet is sick, the concern is mounting and there are differing opinions that it's hard to determine the best course of action. I'm sorry that I may be adding to any additional stress ... Also, I more than welcome contrary opinions from others on the forum.

Ditto that. I agree with the above. At this point, the "self-diagnosing" should stop and the dog should head to the vet.

Are you sure this was not the canine influenza. Some vets may not be very aware of this influenza as I believe it was only identified around 2005 in Florida greyhounds. Since then many states have reported outbreaks including Mass where I live. There is currently a new vaccine for this but adverse reaction history is just not adequate yet which is why I did not vaccinate my dogs. http://www.avma.org/public_health/influenza/canine_guidelines.asp http://www.cdc.gov/flu/canine/ The reason that I mention this is from what I remember, Clostridia is just not that easy to pass from one to another. I suppose it would be possible if the area was very unsanitary but, from what you are stating, it sounds more like a viral respiratory infection that ran rampart through your dogs and maybe they got secondary bacterial infections. But, I haven't worked with Clostidia in decades so maybe different transmission methods have been identified since then. I feel for you - it sounds like you had a really bad time while this was going on.

If the dog has been trying to vomit and can't then he probably needs to be seen by the vet sooner rather than later especially with the Easter weekend. Even though you cannot see anything in his throat, there could still be something there. Might need to get X-rays just to be sure. Were you giving bones by any chance, if so ... there could be some nasty complications if he is trying to vomit up a bone.

A beautiful tribute.

If the stool sample still comes up negative, try adding some cooked oatmeal to the food - it has fiber. If it is going to help, it usually helps within 24 to 48 hours. You may also want to do a culture and see if he picked up a nasty bug - if so, he might need some antibiotics. There's also a chance that even though Jake was fine with the food previously that maybe he has developed an allergy to an ingredient - if it persists, you might want to try an elimination diet.

It was not a first morning urine. I will get that and take it in to the vet. What kind of homemade kidney diet do you do. I also have a 15 year old lab mix in renal failure. We do fluids for her but she will not eat the k/d dog food. How did you find out your dog was allergic to chicken Get a first morning specimen - one taken during the day might be more diluted. The diet that I got from Dr Remaillard from Angel Memorial Hospital in Boston is as follows: breakfast - about 1.5 cups of an oatmeal and grits mixture (oatmeal has a high phosphorous level) mixed with about 1/3 cup meat (or 1 egg instead) and some milk. snack - toast dinner - 3 cups rice, 1/3 cup meat, and 1/2 cup veggies snack - applesauce with yogurt He also gets two fish oil capsules a day along with about 1 1/2 vitamin supplement and about 5 calcium pills. It took a while to figure out that Larry had a sensitivity to chicken and noodles. I actually started an elimination diet for another greyhound and Larry just happened to get the same food. The other greyhound would get severe diarrhea with either chicken or noodles and I started to notice that Larry would also start getting "softer stools" and be drinking much more water (and urinating more) when he had chicken. Larry would also get similiar symptoms but, not as severe with noodles. Once I started both greyhounds on oatmeal Larry's fur on the side and the other greyhound on the neck and ass was growing in beautifully. Hard to tell whether stopping the chicken or adding oatmeal in helped the fur grow in ....

Was the urine a first morning specimen? If not, plan to get another urine that is first morning also did they mention whether there was protein in the urine? My Larry runs lower on the "specific gravity" and a tad high on the blood creatinne and he has been on a home-made kidney diet for quite a few years now and he seems like he is doing ok. He is also sensitive (allergic) to chicken and if he gets that he tends to drink more and as a result, urinate much more. So you could also be dealing with an allergy to food ....

Dogs that are just off the track will "zone in" like that and after some time and patience, some will eventually "come off that zone" - it's just that everything is so new to them so, it'll just takes time. Meanwhile, they will remember "every spot" that they saw something and perk up when they come to that spot again but, after enough times of not seeing something "again in that spot" they seem to start losing interest in that particular spot. It helps if you can walk them at least once a day to get them "exposed" to the world.

Stunning!

Where was the bully stick made - in USA or China?

I've never been a fan of "fasting" - vets used to recommend that when people fed kibble exclusively rather than a bland diet. Also if a dog is fasted, he has a likelihood of vomiting bile because of the empty stomach. What about unsweetened applesauce and a bit of yogurt?

I agree with this statement -- the site has information that is "twisted" or not "all" the information is presented.

In theory ??? I guess I'm a little confused as to what you consider theory. Granted, my theory that feeding meat chunks is safer than feeding chicken or hamburger is not proven and I don't have the abilities (resources) to do testing that would withstand scrutiny. But .... - There have been studies that look at the effects of salmonella and certain strains of E.Coli and their damage to people and canines including recent outbreaks that identified E.Coli as the culprit - is this what you are considering a "theory"? - There are studies on "bacteria transferring" from one host to another, that's why in the last decade or so nurses have taken to wearing gloves all the time and changing them between patients in addition to using germicide on their hands - do you consider the "transferring of bacteria" a theory? - FDA has recommended washing all surfaces that come into contact with raw chicken because of the high incidence of bacterial contamination which they have identified through testing -- do you consider raw chicken having bacterial contamination a theory? - FDA recommends cooking hamburger to specific temperatures to kill bacteria because hamburger has been identified in some outbreaks of E.Coli - do you consider not fully cooked hamburger having a chance of bacterial contamination a theory? The above points cover the "facts as determined by studies" of bacterial issues with chicken and hamburger, the transferring of bacteria, and the damage that bacteria can do. These are not theories of "possible harm", they have been proven. But, I do agree that with any possible danger there is a "risk level" which is measurable and while some people might be able to cope with a higher risk level, others cannot. Also, some people may choose to expose themselves to a higher risk level and if they are making an informed decision - then it is their right. What I would object to is exposing someone else that is immune-compromised and not letting them now of the dangers. For example, if I don't wash my hands after handling raw chicken and then go into a nursing home and interact with the seniors - I am putting them at risk and they have not agreed to be exposed to that risk while I did by not washing my hands. Another example, how would anyone feel if their surgeon did not wash their hands before starting a surgery on them? Your point about dogs and cats being able to handle bacteria differently is true but, if a dog is immune-compromised a "bad" bacteria that is normally kept in check by all the other good bacteria" may have free rein in the gut once an individual or canine is started on antibiotics as the antibiotics tend to kill all the "good bacteria" first and that leaves the bad bacteria" to have a real good time. As you noted and I agree, kibble can be contaminated and can also cause problems. Your point about 4000 members not experiencing a food-borne illness is a good point but, does not mean that they never will or that there are no food borne illnesses experienced by the rest of the population. And, it is important to note that they are "assuming the risk" of any contaminants and if they are healthy, they may be able to brush off any illnesses easily -- it is the people that their dogs come into contact with that might not be able to. Small children that come up and pat the dog and then don't wash their hands later, elder people that hug a dog and also "forget" to wash their hands or face are much more susceptible to any bacteria that they come into contact with. One point that is valid here is just how much responsibility the raw feeder has in protecting the rest of the public. This is similar in arguments to the "vaccine issue". Is a parent responsible for vaccinating their child even though they don't believe in vaccines and think that it harms their child but yet, does this not put other children at risk ... Is the parent of a not vaccinated child required to let others know of their decision? Another point you made is that 95% of the food borne illnesses are from produce and grain - while I know that the number is high -- that seems too high. Can you provide an internet reference for that from a reliable source? As to your question whether I have fed raw - yes I have and I had severe problems with my older dog on it and stopped it very quickly. It's important to note again that I'm not against raw, I am only against the lack of information presented about bacterial contamination and the risks. One other point that fit in here is the "black swan". The black swan theory is simply not being able to say that "something cannot not happen" because all it takes is one incidence to disprove. In the case of the "black swan", investigations had concluded that there were "no black swans" but, recently some were found in Australia. edited to add -- sorry for the extremely long post

In a quick google, the only human study that I found was at: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20064284 It's a small study .. only 20 people and while they didn't see any benefits, more importantly they didn't see any harmful effects on people.

Dunno about "most," but certainly "many." If you have a need to feed hamburger raw rather than cooked, best to buy the larger pieces of meat and grind it yourself just before feeding. I agree that this is a good solution but, if the grinder is not cleaned properly after each use it brings up the possibility that it becomes a breeding ground for clostridium which is an especially nasty bacteria. Best way to avoid contamination that I can see if to buy big roasts and sear the outside while leaving inside raw and then cut up into chunks.

Except that that particular mythology is the work of the system described above. Yes, raw meats can contain things like salmonella and e coli, but so does kibble. If you test the fecal matter of kibble, raw, and "home-cooked" diet dogs, you find the same bacterium. As to immune compromise, the worst place for one who is immune compromised is a densely populated area where the population is transient - like a hospital or the various rehabs and "homes." A germy dog is the least of the worries there. There are plenty of immune compromised people feeding their immune compromised dogs raw, without incident - they just don't feed or handle road kill. Bottom line is that dogs are not sterile, but they are not dangerous because of it. Maybe I have this wrong but, kibble containing salmonella would get recalled or be considered "tainted" and kibble containing the strain of E.Coli that is very virulent would also be recalled and also be considered "tainted". If "other strains" of E.Coli are found in kibble, the FDA would determine what course of action would be necessary depending on what strain is found - some strains are not an issue. The fecal bacterial content of a human or a dog depends on many factors but, they both have bacteria that is normally found in the digestive tract and excreted. But, salmonella is not considered normal, if ingested it would end up going through the system and get excreted and thus allow contamination by anyone having contact with the feces (in addition to getting the dog sick). If the salmonella was ingested from eating a contaminated chicken (as in raw feeding), then the fur around the face, the legs, and maybe the chest area could also be sites of possible contamination. Note, that beef has much less issues of contamination except for hamburger which has a high risk of E.Coli contamination because it goes through a grinder and more of the meat surface area gets exposed. Totally agree that dangers exist for "immune compromised" people in nursing homes, hospitals and the like and for this reason, people should be much more vigilent in making sure that a dog with possible salmonella on it's fur is not brought in because these people are already dealing with a "hot soup environment". It's noteworthy to mention that dogs going into an area like this should probably be washed (anyplace where contact is made like face, back, chest, feet) before being brought back into your own house otherwise the dog may be harboring MRSA (antibiotic resistant staph). Contamination works both ways ..... I totally agree that dogs (or humans) are not sterile but, they can be lethal to "immune compromised individuals" if they are carrying a virulent bacteria like salmonella or the mutant E.Coli strain. For example, if I handle chicken that is contaminated and do not take the proper precautions, I could contaminate other work surfaces in my kitchen that are used for items like salad and cause someone to become very sick. The same with a dog, if a dog eats raw and if proper precautions are not taken, someone could get sick by handling (patting) the dog and not washing their hands before eating. I may be wrong but, I think most of the bacterial issues associated with raw feeding could be almost eliminated by not feeding chicken/poultry or hamburger. As to immune compromised dogs eating raw and immune compromised people feeding raw to dogs -- this gets into "people's experience without adequate research" as I mentioned in another response. Not to say that it isn't valid but it needs to be worked into a study to be taken seriously by the medical community. With that in mind, I think raw feeders should get together and work with a nutritional vet and get some studies done and have them published. They could even do some studies comparing dogs fed kibble, home-cooked, and raw over a period of many years.

By "pour over" do you mean scrutinize or do you mean as a basis for their knowledge. Because quite frankly I don't see a dogfood company providing any data that would reflect positive on raw feeding. They scrutinize the data (if available). Many nutritional vets are now able to start relying on their own data (note, nutritional vets have only been vogue the last decade or so). My nutritional vet (at Angel) has updated her recommendations based on her experience with clients. Every time I have gone in for updated diets I have told her what I have been providing for my dogs and she has the benefit of getting current lab results (blood and urine). As to data reflecting positive on raw feeding, I don't think there is much data that vets have on raw feeding, as you said why would a dog food company provide data on raw feeding. Unfortunately, much of the information that is going around is people's experience and that is not backed up by research and/or blood/urine tests. I think if raw feeders are really passionate about the diets they should see if they can hook up with a nutritional vet and provide information to them (yearly blood work, pictures, diets, vet examination results, and so on). If enough people do it and use the same vet, that vet could do a write-up of the findings and have it published.

Just a note that most nutritional vets are not likely to recommend raw diets because of the bacteria that is prone with feeding raw and not because of "their own ignorance". There are certain strains of E. Coli bacteria that can cause severe digestive problems in canines and these same bacteria can even cause death in immune-compromised individuals. That's why there are complaints/issues when raw-fed dogs visit nursing homes, children's hospitals or live in a house where someone is undergoing chemo. I'm not against raw feeding if it is in very sanitary conditions (keeping dog clean) and no immune compromised people living with dog or dog does not have immune condition, and no feeding of chicken/poultry which is a bacterial nightmare due to the way it is eviscerated. That said, it's true that decades ago you could say that most vets pretty much went by what dog food companies would say but, that is not common today especially with vets in large cities that specialize in nutrition and engage in their own research on animal diets or are likely to "pour over" data that dog food companies provide.

Condolences for the loss of your friend

I found something by googling ... "fish oil overdose in dogs" http://saveabull.com/2010/dog-ate-fish-oil/

About 1 hour after she ate my Lucy (foster at the time) had the following symptoms: 1. pacing 2. stretching her neck out 3. stomache/chest area seemed to be fuller 4. some excess saliva coming from her mouth I took one look at her and we were in the car going to the vet's in 3 minutes. Luckily she vomited in the car. The vet confirmed that she had severe gas and they gave her shots along with pills to calm the stomach and let me take her home with the understanding that if it started again we would be back in the ER. Note, if she hadn't already vomited in the car, the vets would have done more procedures to ensure that it didn't turn into torsion (twisting of the stomach).

Checking for an update ..... hope that you're either at Angel or Tufts ... I've used Angel countless times for emergencies at odd hours and they are good. I've only used Tufts ER twice and they were also good.

I agree - get an x-ray now! You can also try Tufts in Grafton - I believe they have an emergency room and I think they are staffed with residents from the vet school. If your dog has diarrhea that is bloody and is vomiting (in Doolin's case, dry heaves) then the dog needs to get to the vet ASAP.

Have you talked this over with your vet? The reason that I ask is that some vets might recommend cooked food for any dogs that are showing "immune" issues. Raw food (especially chicken) could contain a host of bacteria that could cause further medical issues. Raw meats like a beef roast has less surface area exposed to harmful bacteria and might be better choice if you are determined to go this route but, check and see what your vet recommends. You might also consider going to a nutritional vet.