Incontinece Medication Research

[Stoney]

About a month ago I started finding wet spots on the couch. They appeared while I was at work and were always very sporadic. None of the spots were large or in 'marking' positions. Then I noticed that Beans was smelling like pee, so I finally knew who the culprit was.

 

I slapped a belly band on him and discovered that while he was sleeping he would leak anywhere from a few drops to a tablespoon or more of urine. We took him and his pee to the vet, she had it cultured and NOTHING was found. I questioned her on the possibility of a UTI and she is pretty certain that he doesn't have one (his urine was nicely concentrated and there were no RBC's or WBC's present at all). Her feeling is that, while rare, it's incontinence and that it would be best to start treating it with PPA.

 

What I'm concerned with is the potential side effect of stroke.

 

So I'm calling on the greyhound community to help me research the frequency of side effects when PPA is taken alone and in combination with other drugs for other conditions. Luckily I have a very very understanding vet who has greyhound experience but is always open to new research and other people's experience.

 

Thank you for your help!

[Batmom]

First, might ask your vet to try a course of antibiotics even tho nothing is showing up.

 

Second, might consider food change before meds. To make long story very short: Zema was having some leakage incidents. Didn't quite fit classic incontinence pattern. Always got better on antibiotics but always relapsed after a time. Changed her food to a very restricted home-prepared diet ... et voila. End of problem. She is back on a trial of commercial food now but has already had one probable UTI since starting this; one more urinary issue and I'll put her back on home-prep for good.

[Guest KRKWMU]

I'm not sure if medications are different for female greys. Our girl, Gracey is on DES for incontinence problems. I remember we were back and forth between two difference meds and I think the other one was PPA. Our vet felt that the DES would be less troublesome for Gracey.

 

We've really been able to decrease the dosage and still get good results. She gets one pill (not sure on the dosage) only every 10 days. We may cut it back even more.

 

I hope you find something that helps. Let us know what you decide.

[Stoney]

First, might ask your vet to try a course of antibiotics even tho nothing is showing up.

 

I asked, she was pretty adamant that it wasn't necessary since he had a full work up (blood & urine tests) last Friday.

 

Second, might consider food change before meds. To make long story very short: Zema was having some leakage incidents. Didn't quite fit classic incontinence pattern. Always got better on antibiotics but always relapsed after a time. Changed her food to a very restricted home-prepared diet ... et voila. End of problem. She is back on a trial of commercial food now but has already had one probable UTI since starting this; one more urinary issue and I'll put her back on home-prep for good.

 

I've thought about this. I'm wondering if the leakage was related to the food switch (we were feeding Orijen, but changed to Blue Buffalo Wilderness) - I'll have to look at my records to see when we made the switch. They only get one meal of kibble, the other is raw.

 

 

I'm not sure if medications are different for female greys. Our girl, Gracey is on DES for incontinence problems. I remember we were back and forth between two difference meds and I think the other one was PPA. Our vet felt that the DES would be less troublesome for Gracey.

 

We've really been able to decrease the dosage and still get good results. She gets one pill (not sure on the dosage) only every 10 days. We may cut it back even more.

 

I hope you find something that helps. Let us know what you decide.

 

My vet mentioned DES, but wasn't sure if it would work well for a male. She also mentioned testosterone, but again wasn't sure of the effects.

[packmom]

We were just considering doing something about this problem that Angel has had most of her life. It comes and goes. I read PPA can raise blood pressure so we decided agaist it. Her BP is already being controled by a huge dose of Norvasc. There was another medication that is not widely available- I can't remember the name. She tried that years agoe and it made her sick. She had 2 accupuncture treatments before we discovered her cancer so have stopped them. The accu vet did say that since she has had this for so long it would not be resolved quickly.

[Guest KennelMom]

We've had a female dog on both DES and PPA with great success and no side effects (spay incontinence). Our male Caesar was on PPA for age related incontinence for years with no side effects - trying to recall all his other meds...at the end he was on rimadyl and tramadol for pain. I think that's about it...

[Burpdog]

I would do the meds (probably clavamox) and a food change. While some dogs may be able to handle DES (must do blood work as it can affect platelets) and PPA (at least two on this board have died from complications), why not try the other things first?

[GreyPoopon]

I'd like to second Batmom's recommendations.

 

I've been having similar issues with Cora. Since we're having trouble sorting out the food, and the puddles are huge (and we're pretty sure she doesn't have a UTI), we're treating the incontinence in the meantime. We're using Propalin, a non-hormonal medication that tightens the sphincter. It's working very well. I don't know if it works for boys. Cora is not on any other meds.

Edited July 2, 2008 by GreyPoopon

[Guest vahoundlover]

Dolly died from a toxic reation to PPA, Never again will I use it on any of our dogs.

 

My acupuncture vet has had good luck with herbs, wish I had known that 2yrs ago

[feemandvm]

Greyhounds in my experience are more sensitive to PPA than other breeds and require MUCH lower dosing... I usually use 12.5-25mg. For another breed of similar size they would get 50-75mg. It starts at twice daily and then can be reduced in many dogs.

 

The only way to rule out a UTI is by a urine culture which I assume wasn't done. Ask for one if it wasn't. No guessing about abx... just get the culture and you'll know if it is an infection and waht abx to use!

 

You could also try Bladder strength by Vetriscience.

 

 

[Greytlady94]

All I will add is we have had no UTI's since starting them on only filtered water.

[Guest luvmyhounds]

Last Tuesday night I gave Chick her 3rd dose of PPA (one 25mg a day) for her leaking during the night. I gave it to her at 10:00 and then we all went to bed. At 10:45 she came to my bed panting hard and she was from room to room, tried to get her to go outside, nothing seemed to help and the problem was getting worse. I put her in the car and drove to the Emergency Vet about 35 min. away. By the time I got her there, she couldn't stand up and was on her last breath. They did radiographs to rule out bloat, and a full blood panel. The only thing they found was her potassium was low. They started her on IV w/potassium. At 2:30 she was no better, so they wanted me to have a lot of nurological test done. They advised me that it would cost between $1500 and $5000 dollars. I love my dogs, but I do not have that kind of money. (she is 10 yrs old) I asked them if they would keep her over night and they did. They called me the next morning around 7:00 and said she was a little bit stronger and I needed to come get her and take her to my vet. I took her to my vet and she checked her and found that her blood pressure must have been so high during the night the it burst several blood vessels in both eyes. They are still red. She also had a tempture of 103, and she was holding her head to the left. She was so weak she couldn't stand so I went to the car and got a dog bed for her to lay on and they carried her out on the dog bed and put her in my car. She called a specialist at the emergency vet and he advised her to do the shotgun approach. They said it could be menengitas sp?, stroke, tbd, they just didn't know. She told him Chick was on PPA and they both said they had never heard of this medication causing problems in dogs. I didn't agree. I started giving her 3 different meds that day, and she seemed to be doing a little better by Friday, but she still was far from being well.

 

Its almost been a week and I am happy to report that she seems to be doing a lot better. She is still a little weak, but we are taking it a day at a time. I will never give her PPA again!

 

In the Spring Issue 2002 of Celebrating Greyhound magazine, the had a story about Incontinent Hounds. It said that PPA can increase heart rate and blood pressure. In some cases it may suppress the appetite and cause restlessness due to increaced central nervous system activity. Because Greyhounds tend to be sensitive to medications, a smaller, less frequent dose is often enough. If your hound shows any signs of nervousness or restlessness, contact your vet for advice. Chick had all of these.

 

I am going to share this with my vet. It also said that this same drug had been taken off the market for humans because it had caused strokes, but they had no data that it had caused illness in animals.

 

I just wanted to share my story with others, in hopes that you will not have to go through with you dog, what I went through with mine. Hopefully Chick will continue to get stronger.

[Guest greybookends]

I clicked the wrong answer for the last question. Sheana is on Proin and has no side effects but doesn't take any other medication except for Fish oil and Glucosamine. Now from time to time she has been on antibiotics for various reasons with no side effects. We did try Chiro before we started the Proin. I have read where that some have had good results with it but it didn't work for Sheana so we had to go to medication.

 

Yes some hounds react badly to it but then some people react badly to penicillin, that doesn't mean it's a bad med. It just means that those individuals shouldn't take those meds. Can it cause strokes or whatever, maybe, but so can most of the meds we take on a regular basis. Most meds have the potential for some sort of side effect, that doesn't mean we condemn them. The decision should be made on an individual basis. Unfortunately there are those that only have to take the meds once for it to be fatal. There is never a universal answer for all. All I know is that you can't condemn a med for ALL hounds because some reacted bad and deny the rest the benefits. Good luck.

Edited August 20, 2008 by greybookends

[phall]

My 12 year old, Tally, has been on PPA for many years now (6, I believe) and he hasn't had any problems with it. He's also been on soloxine all that time as well. Recently (a few months ago) we've added Previcox for his arthritis pain and he still hasn't had any issues.

 

I'm having problems getting PPA now - all my sources have said it is on backorder so it looks like I'll switch to Proin.

 

Pat

 

[winnie]

Our 7.5 y/o grey girl Darcy started having some incontinence issues a few weeks ago. Our vet put her on Proin. It seems to be working well with no noticeable side effects. Not sure if Proin is the same as PPA, so I didn't respond to the survey.

[Guest MZH]

Sparkle died from a hemorrhagic stroke after being on either Proin or ppa for 5 years. She always looked like she had a headache while on the stuff, especially when on the recommended dose. (Eyes squinty and generally unhappy looking.)

 

Here's a good article from Whole Dog 2006 on incontinence with treatment options to consider.

 

http://www.dogaware.com/incontinence.html

 

Marcia in SC

[RaineysMom]

Rainey has incontinence, and takes DES every 5 days. I was scared about the PPA too (especially after poor Dolly died from it (Hope [VaHoundLover's] girl) :( : ()

 

may want to ask your vet about DES instead?

 

good luck to both of you!!!!!

[Guest MZH]

Our 7.5 y/o grey girl Darcy started having some incontinence issues a few weeks ago. Our vet put her on Proin. It seems to be working well with no noticeable side effects. Not sure if Proin is the same as PPA, so I didn't respond to the survey.

 

Yep, it's the same as ppa; just the chewable form.

 

Marcia in SC

[winnie]

Our 7.5 y/o grey girl Darcy started having some incontinence issues a few weeks ago. Our vet put her on Proin. It seems to be working well with no noticeable side effects. Not sure if Proin is the same as PPA, so I didn't respond to the survey.

 

Yep, it's the same as ppa; just the chewable form.

 

Marcia in SC

 

Thanks for the clarification. I answered the survey now - no side affects, no other meds and no alternate therapies used.

 

 

Yes some hounds react badly to it but then some people react badly to penicillin, that doesn't mean it's a bad med. It just means that those individuals shouldn't take those meds. Can it cause strokes or whatever, maybe, but so can most of the meds we take on a regular basis. Most meds have the potential for some sort of side effect, that doesn't mean we condemn them. The decision should be made on an individual basis. Unfortunately there are those that only have to take the meds once for it to be fatal. There is never a universal answer for all. All I know is that you can't condemn a med for ALL hounds because some reacted bad and deny the rest the benefits. Good luck.

 

I agree with this statement.

[greyhoundlov]

About a month ago I started finding wet spots on the couch. They appeared while I was at work and were always very sporadic. None of the spots were large or in 'marking' positions. Then I noticed that Beans was smelling like pee, so I finally knew who the culprit was.

 

I slapped a belly band on him and discovered that while he was sleeping he would leak anywhere from a few drops to a tablespoon or more of urine. We took him and his pee to the vet, she had it cultured and NOTHING was found. I questioned her on the possibility of a UTI and she is pretty certain that he doesn't have one (his urine was nicely concentrated and there were no RBC's or WBC's present at all). Her feeling is that, while rare, it's incontinence and that it would be best to start treating it with PPA.

 

What I'm concerned with is the potential side effect of stroke.

 

So I'm calling on the greyhound community to help me research the frequency of side effects when PPA is taken alone and in combination with other drugs for other conditions. Luckily I have a very very understanding vet who has greyhound experience but is always open to new research and other people's experience.

 

Thank you for your help!

 

My China Blue was taking PPA for a post-nasal drip. She had a stroke. It took 6 months to get her back to walking normally.

 

It amazes me that they removed OTC meds for humans containing this ingredient BECAUSE IT CAUSED STROKES but still prescribe it for animals.

[Guest Spencers_Greyt]

What is PPA?

[greyhoundlov]

What is PPA?

 

Short for phenylpropanolamine

[Plymgreys]

We first noticed that Cassie was leaking about 2 months after she came to live with us. She was 10 or so at the time. Vet prescribed Propalin which is the name PPA seems to go by here in the UK. She did really well, no side effects but she still wasn't right. Eventually she was diagnosed with Cushings and was prescribed Vetoryl. She continued with both for a little while but it soon became apparent that as the treatment for Cushings kicked in she was drinking normally and so not filling her bladder and less likely to leak. We scaled back the PPA til she wasn't taking it at all over a period of 6-8 weeks. She did stunningly well on the Vetoryl but sadly died when she was 12 from tumour in her spine which caused paralasys in her back legs.

[Guest minzenon]

Try - PSEUDOEPHEDRIN - yep the sinus relief stuff. make sure that is the only ingredient. 1 tablet twice a day for 4 - 5 days then cut down to a half a tablet for the next 3 days. My boy stopped leaking after 2 days. In humans it works on the sinuses but at that dose in a dog it works on the central nervous system which in turn controls the bladder. In some instances you may need to continue at half a tablet a day but in Shae's case he came off the tablets after a week and only had one more bout of leaking in a year which was fixed by a 3 day course. No side effects. They use it mainly for spay incontinence but it is working on loss of bladder control in older dogs.

[Guest MZH]

Try - PSEUDOEPHEDRIN - yep the sinus relief stuff. make sure that is the only ingredient. 1 tablet twice a day for 4 - 5 days then cut down to a half a tablet for the next 3 days. My boy stopped leaking after 2 days. In humans it works on the sinuses but at that dose in a dog it works on the central nervous system which in turn controls the bladder. In some instances you may need to continue at half a tablet a day but in Shae's case he came off the tablets after a week and only had one more bout of leaking in a year which was fixed by a 3 day course. No side effects. They use it mainly for spay incontinence but it is working on loss of bladder control in older dogs.

 

Don't ppa, proin, and pseudoephredrin all raise the blood pressure? IOW, don't they work the same way?

 

I don't have a dog with incontinence right now but I don't what I'd use if I did, having already lost a dog to cerebral hemorrhage while on Proin. (:

 

Marcia