Genetics

[Guest Bodie]

There is a fascinating discussion going on now on Circle of Grey about bloodlines and the possibility that certain bloodlines seem to have more incidences of cancer than others. Some names that have been mentioned are Oshkosh Racey (in fact the whole Oshkosh line), Unruly, Downing, K's Flak, Onie Jones, Westy Whizzer, and Big Whizzer. I looked up Bodie's lineage and I was astonished to see that he was related, sometimes on both sides, to the first five on this list. Oshkosh Racey being his "grandfather", so to speak. Bodie, of course, has osteo. Then I looked up Rainy's lineage. Rainy is never sick (knock on wood!) She only has a tiny bit of Downing in her. Very unscientific research on my part, but interesting.

 

That got me started thinking about Bodie's siblings. Have they developed osteo or another form of cancer? He raced as KW Fast Abner. His siblings are KW Abby, KW ASti, KW Big Abner, KW Fast, KW Little Abner, and KW Miss Little. He was born on July 6, 2000. I mention this in case anyone out there owns one of his siblings. I'd be curious to know how his/her health is.

 

I also wanted to alert Greytalk members that Circle of Grey has started a database for greyhounds with cancer. If your grey has cancer, go to Circle and add your grey to the database, if you know his/her sire and dam. (That info. can be found on www.greyhound-data.com)

 

I believe Dr. Couto and company are doing research on lineage and cancer. Is anyone else? Does anyone know if there has been a "discovery" that any particular line carries cancer? Not that we would love our furkids any less - it just would be interesting to know.

 

 

[silverfish]

Yes, Dr Couto and OSU are doing research into possible causes of osteosarcoma and are coming down on the side of a genetic link.

 

Over this side of the Pond, as you may or may not know, we don't seem to have the same high incidence of OS in greyhounds. They do get OS, but only with the same risk as other large, long-boned dogs. I have personally known of four dogs here in the UK with bone cancer and only one was a greyhound.

 

Here, there is some talk that Greenpark Fox may throw more offspring with a tendency to OS than other sires. Interestingly, he is a descendent of Big Whizzer, so there MAY be some truth in that, if your information is correct.

[RobinM]

Unruly, Downing, K's Flak, Onie Jones-- We've got that line here in most of my dogs.

[Guest MorganKonaAlex]

You'd be hard pressed to find a US racing greyhound that doesn't have some of those names in their pedigree.

 

When Morgan was treated, I gave permission for his tats to be provided to a study. I think it was the Broad Institute at MIT.

[Guest FrostyBottoms]

I think almost every dog is related to one of those dogs...I know both of mine are.

[Guest gonewtthewind1]

Dr. Kenine Comstock is doing a study on genetics and cancer occurance in greyhounds and several other breeds. I sent in a blood sample for all of my dogs. They are asking for dogs that are 6 and over send in a blood sample and pedigree. If anyone is interested PM me and I'll get you the email. They'll mail you the collection kit for free. All you need to do is get the blood pulled and pay to mail it back. It's only a few dollars to mail it.

 

Becky

[packmom]

Not sure of their bloodline but I found it really interesting that Zinger and his half brother, Dennis (who are identical) developed osteo in the same place at the exact same age. Their life after amp was about the same length also. Z has full siblings who are still healthy.

 

[smday]

My Reko Oba died of some weird cancer, not osteo. I just looked up his litter mates and some of them died of various miscellaneous cancers, again not osteo. Makes you wonder. I see Downing and Onie Jones but they are 4 generations back - not very close at all. i don't know if it means anything.

[Guest KennelMom]

You'd be hard pressed to find a US racing greyhound that doesn't have some of those names in their pedigree.

 

 

 

What I would find interesting is if there's a genetic connection between dogs getting osteo at an abnormally young rate. With 12 generally considered to be the top end of a greyhound's lifespan...a 12+ year old dog having osteo (or some other cancer) isn't as shocking as, say, a 6 or 7 year old. (just as heartbreaking, though). Of our Bridge Kids, two were lost to cancer - one of those was osteo at 13. The other was the greyhound my hubby lost before we met and she was only 9.

Edited November 1, 2007 by KennelMom

[ahicks51]

Over this side of the Pond, as you may or may not know, we don't seem to have the same high incidence of OS in greyhounds. They do get OS, but only with the same risk as other large, long-boned dogs. I have personally known of four dogs here in the UK with bone cancer and only one was a greyhound.

 

You also don't have fluoridation at the same level as in the United States. From:

 

http://www.dentalwatch.org/fl/bfs.html

 

"In the UK around 6 million people (approximately 10% of the population) currently receive a fluoridated water supply. The West Midlands being the most extensively fluoridated region. Worldwide around 400 million people benefit from a fluoridated water supply, with the US being one of the most extensively fluoridated countries."

 

From Wikipedia:

 

"Currently 66% of United States residents on public water supplies have fluoridated water.[1]"

 

Internationally, the US as a higher rate of osteosarcoma than in the UK, but only barely:

 

http://www.health.qld.gov.au/oralhealth/documents/31294.pdf

 

A rate of 3.3 per million (US) compared to 2.6 per million (England and Wales), but 1.9 per million in Scotland.

 

And that Scottish figure is the interesting one. Scotland has been a stalwart holdout in water fluoridation. "In Scotland, a small area of Grampian is naturally fluoridated, and there have been a handful of schemes in places such as Wick and Stranraer." And that's about it.

 

It's not clear at all whether fluoride causes osteosarcoma, or if it even *can* cause osteo. But as the Brits are so prone to pointing out, they sure don't have the same problem that we do with the cancer in their greys, and their water is generally not fluoridated.

 

There are some good studies relating to fluoride and osteo, and a lot of yammering idiots, so it runs the gamut from those who know what they're talking about to those that really don't. So- who's right is anyone's guess. And even though the damage would already have been done, we give our dogs RO water, which should have virtually no fluoride.

 

I'm not an analytical chemist, but I used to play one in the lab.

 

 

[Guest Bodie]

"What I would find interesting is if there's a genetic connection between dogs getting osteo at an abnormally young rate. "

 

 

Bodie has just turned 7 when he was diagnosed wtih osteo - which is what makes me curious about his siblings and their health.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Bodie

[scullysmum]

Yes, Dr Couto and OSU are doing research into possible causes of osteosarcoma and are coming down on the side of a genetic link.

 

Over this side of the Pond, as you may or may not know, we don't seem to have the same high incidence of OS in greyhounds. They do get OS, but only with the same risk as other large, long-boned dogs. I have personally known of four dogs here in the UK with bone cancer and only one was a greyhound.

 

Here, there is some talk that Greenpark Fox may throw more offspring with a tendency to OS than other sires. Interestingly, he is a descendent of Big Whizzer, so there MAY be some truth in that, if your information is correct.

IMO there is a genetic link in all types of cancer, but that's just my opinion. As far as certain bloodlines go there is a big problem there because the sires who produce the most offspring will have the most cases of OS, it's just plain old statistics.

 

Greenpark Fox has been suspected of being a "carrier" but according to GH Data he produced 2433 offspring and I know that he was also the joint highest producing sire in one year, which means that there is more chance of a dog having him in their pedigree (half the Greys I know personally, including Sadi are related to him), so unless a certain marker or markers can be found that directly link to certain bloodlines I'm afaid it's all statistics.

[Guest snowberry]

Re: Greenpark Fox, I've heard it said that the line through Trade Official, one of his sons and also a prolific sire, are particularly prone, but I have no figures to back that up with.

 

What's RO water?

[GreyTzu]

...

 

What's RO water?

 

Reverse Osmosis, a way of purifying water. Or whatever it technically does to water. Maybe it cleans up the smell or something, I can't remember.

[Madeara]

I have always wondered about this and was hoping that one day someone would study this thought. Asia has Oskosh in her Darius almost 15 is simply amazing, especailly now that it is fall, he loves the cooler weather. I would like to know if his Dutch Bahama lineage is mostly cancer free.

[Guest whatahound]

Westy Whizzer is in Ace and Nikki's blood line and Big Whizzer is in Gee Gee's.

Edited November 1, 2007 by whatahound

[MP_the4pack]

Of the six that I have/had..........every single one is related to Onie Jones. The two bridge kids did not have osteo (well, Topaz was only 5, she could have gotten it if she lived). Brindle had hemangio.

 

Of the four I still have, two made it to 10 and one is 12 yrs old. I have a unraced 3 yr old....it will be interesting to see what happens to her.

 

 

 

[silverfish]

I think almost every dog is related to one of those dogs...I know both of mine are.

 

And perhaps that's a very relevant point. Only one of my dogs is, and that's Renie. She's the one with Greenpark Fox in her pedigree, who is a descendent of Big Whizzer - one of the names on your list.

 

 

Over this side of the Pond, as you may or may not know, we don't seem to have the same high incidence of OS in greyhounds. They do get OS, but only with the same risk as other large, long-boned dogs. I have personally known of four dogs here in the UK with bone cancer and only one was a greyhound.

 

You also don't have fluoridation at the same level as in the United States. From:

 

http://www.dentalwatch.org/fl/bfs.html

 

"In the UK around 6 million people (approximately 10% of the population) currently receive a fluoridated water supply. The West Midlands being the most extensively fluoridated region. Worldwide around 400 million people benefit from a fluoridated water supply, with the US being one of the most extensively fluoridated countries."

 

 

That's very interesting, because I was under the impression that MOST of our water is flouridated and has been for some considerable time. I'd have to check on that though. No statistics to quote from home-grown data.

 

 

Greenpark Fox has been suspected of being a "carrier" but according to GH Data he produced 2433 offspring and I know that he was also the joint highest producing sire in one year, which means that there is more chance of a dog having him in their pedigree (half the Greys I know personally, including Sadi are related to him), so unless a certain marker or markers can be found that directly link to certain bloodlines I'm afaid it's all statistics.

 

This is also very true...

 

 

 

Re: Greenpark Fox, I've heard it said that the line through Trade Official, one of his sons and also a prolific sire, are particularly prone, but I have no figures to back that up with.

 

 

*&$*!

 

Renie's sire is Trade Official...

 

Well, I'm already keeping a closer eye on her because of the Greenpark Fox thing, so it won't change anything to know that.

[gazehund]

Not sure of their bloodline but I found it really interesting that Zinger and his half brother, Dennis (who are identical) developed osteo in the same place at the exact same age. Their life after amp was about the same length also. Z has full siblings who are still healthy.

 

Suzy on a quick look P's Raising Cain (Zing's sire) has Onie Jones in his pedigree.

 

Pixie Zee (mother) has Downing and Big Whizzer.

 

But..........Da Bones (full brother to Zinger for those who don't know) is alive and well. Interesting topic.

Edited November 1, 2007 by gazehund

[Guest EmbersDad]

embers pop, greys statesman, was sired by k's flak who was sired by onie jones. greys statesman made it to 13, ember will be 10 in december and has really never been sick. lets hope it stays that way.

[ahicks51]

What's RO water?

 

Reverse osmosis is a way to produce cleaner water by pushing it through a membrane. Water molecules are smaller than many impurities, reducing their concentration dramatically.

 

In the case of fluoride, the ion is quite large and readily excluded by the membrane. A nice, fresh RO membrane will reduce fluoride concentration by 99%, give or take. Activated charcoal filters, such as those found in most common water filtration units, are not good at removing anions; therefore, they will have little effect on fluoride.

[Guest CyndiW]

I have always wondered about this and was hoping that one day someone would study this thought. Asia has Oskosh in her Darius almost 15 is simply amazing, especailly now that it is fall, he loves the cooler weather. I would like to know if his Dutch Bahama lineage is mostly cancer free.

 

Dutch Bahama was Odysseus' (RJ Medicine Man) grandfather. However, Downing was on his other side twice. In fact it looks like 2 of his offspring had offspring together if I am looking at it right. Ody was dx at 7.5 with osteo and we lost him at 8.5.

[Batmom]

Some names that have been mentioned are Oshkosh Racey (in fact the whole Oshkosh line), Unruly, Downing, K's Flak, Onie Jones, Westy Whizzer, and Big Whizzer.

 

You'd be hard put to find an American-bred greyhound that doesn't have at least one of those (and note that several of those are closely related to each other).

 

Batman was a K's Flak grandson. In diagnosing him, we took a lot of x-rays shortly after his 10th birthday. He had the most beautiful bones -- those x-rays ought to be in a textbook somewhere, just breathtakingly perfect. No osteosarcoma, no arthritis, nothing to do with bones at all. He died of complications of malignant histiocytosis at 10.5.

[Guest Elaine]

From what I remember... Oshkosh Racey had bone cancer. His maternal grandsire, Oshkosh Champ, had bone cancer. Champ's sire, Cactus Lonesome, had bone cancer. However, that being said, just because a disease, condition or syndrome may have genetic components or just because one may have the genetic predisposition to a disease, that doesn't mean you will get the disease.

 

Also, from what I remember, some of Racey's offspring had bone cancer, including the littermates, Guard My Angel and Trackside Angel.

[Guest Bodie]

From what I remember... Oshkosh Racey had bone cancer. His maternal grandsire, Oshkosh Champ, had bone cancer. Champ's sire, Cactus Lonesome, had bone cancer. However, that being said, just because a disease, condition or syndrome may have genetic components or just because one may have the genetic predisposition to a disease, that doesn't mean you will get the disease.

 

Also, from what I remember, some of Racey's offspring had bone cancer, including the littermates, Guard My Angel and Trackside Angel.

 

Hmmm.... very interesting, especially since Bodie has a close genetic relationship to Oshkosh Racey plus also 3 other Oshkosh's in his line...