Hookworm!

[cgs]

I'm starting a new topic because stuff about hookworm is spread all over in threads that don't necessarily have hookworm in the title. And some are old and I think things have changed. I'm going to cut/paste/quote some stuff from other threads. I hope that's ok. I'm new here and don't know the rules and customs. If not ok, let me know.

 

 

So, Percy, who we adopted 2 weeks ago, has hookworms and giardia.

 

From NewGrey2017:

 

Mine has received one clean fecal report but that took 4 months. My dog came from WVA. All the dogs adopted had worms. I'm taking another fecal sample in about 2-3 days. Gave him the worm treatment last weekend. If that is also negative I'm considering us past the worm issue for now and will probably get him checked quarterly for the next year. My dog's stools have not improved since getting the first "no hook worm" present. Earlier we discussed metronidazole which has been the only thing that has really worked. He is currently eating ProPlan Sensitive Stomach Salmon and Olewo Carrots.

 

Vet should tell you the level of hookworks, ie 1+, 2+, etc up to 4+. Mine was 3+ the whole time then dropped to zero. So, we are going to reconfirm next week.

 

Check my Poop is a Four Letter Word thread for details, but what finally (and only) worked for my boy was Advantage Multi followed within 24 hours by Drontal. I got these from the Drs Foster and Smith website because is was much cheaper than my vet. We had to break the Drontal into small doses given the day after the Advantage Multi or he would up chuck it. Panacur didn't work at all, so I'd ask them not to give you that.

 

You are not alone, there is a ton of good info on this website.

 

Good luck.

From GreyTzu:

 

 

Hooks are a PITA to get rid of and often poop sample will be a false negative.

 

Repeated and often worming is necessary.

 

In my home, I would worm 2 to 3 times a week for 3 or 4 weeks.

From NewGrey2017:

 

I'll repost the email my vet received from the Greyhound program at Ohio State. Might help.

 

We have had success using monthly topical Advantage Multi, followed by within 24 hrs an appropriate dose of Drontal Plus. Not sure why it works. We used 6 greyhounds, one with >1 yr history of hooks. In several dogs it took up to 3 months for them to go negative whereas others went negative (no ova detected) sooner. At least twice over the 9 month trial, a two owners did not follow the 30 day/monthly dosing and their dogs went positive again. We hope to get this work published as we have just finished the clinical trial. The dogs will remain on the Advantage Multi without the Drontal Plus to see if we can keep them negative.

Link to document that was posted in a couple different threads:

http://prisongreyhounds.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Hookworm.pdf

Link to "Poop is a 4 letter word" thread with NewGrey2017's experience and various advice. Too much to quote, but others can feel free to repeat advice here.

http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/322352-poop-is-a-four-letter-word/

Edited March 10, 2018 by cgs

[cgs]

Now my new question.

 

Vet said that Percy needs panacur for giardia. She said that should work for hookworms too, but when I told her what I've read here, she was fine also prescribing Drontal for the hookworms.

 

But I found this chart here:

https://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?articleid=1086

 

And panacur is fenbenzadole, which is also an ingredient in drontal plus. So am I going to overdose my dog? She said to give the pancur every day for 6 days I think. It's a powder. The drontal is one dose of a tablet and a half. I'm not going to give the drontal until I also get the advantage multi, which I had to order. But I'm wondering about even starting the panacur (and I want to return it if I don't need it because it's expensive.)

 

Is the regimen for giardia just different? Is it safe to use these meds together? I feel like the vet should know this, but she didn't have any qualms about prescribing both and I didn't know the details to ask.

Edited March 10, 2018 by cgs

[cgs]

Another question. The vet gave panacur for 6 days. The box says to use for 3 days. For those who have used it, how long do you give it?

[tbhounds]

You could use strongidt for the hooks (I found giving it once a week for 6 weeks very effective) and metronidazole for the giardia.

[XTRAWLD]

Ryder arrived at my home with Giardia and we used Metronidazole for at least 1 week. To be truthful, I think using it for 6 days over 3 is better. For what it's worth, I would use your vet's instructions over what is prescribed on the box.

[GreyTzu]

This is what I use. I told her what I this is what I use and what we are doing in MY house. She does not have an issue with it and happily wrote the dosage down for me and gave me the syringes. She would rather have healthy animals in her care and likes to have and help onwers wherever she can.

 

 

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B000HHSHI8/?coliid=IJ1W899L0BEIK&colid=3VZXXRMJ6OV73&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

 

 

I haven't killed animal yet doing this.

[cmc333]

This is what I use. I told her what I this is what I use and what we are doing in MY house. She does not have an issue with it and happily wrote the dosage down for me and gave me the syringes. She would rather have healthy animals in her care and likes to have and help onwers wherever she can.

 

 

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B000HHSHI8/?coliid=IJ1W899L0BEIK&colid=3VZXXRMJ6OV73&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

 

 

I haven't killed animal yet doing this.

I've used this for years for both westies and greys and everyone has been fine also. Much cheaper doing it this way.

[cgs]

It's the same ingredient as panacur, which I keep hearing doesn't work. And lower concentration. But yeah, cheaper. :/

Can anyone tell me what the 1+, 2+ 3+ numbers mean? The vet told me 11-30 for hooks and 1-10 (or something) for giardia. When I asked about the 3+ kind of number, she didn't know. I can't find anything online.

[NewGrey2017]

It's the same ingredient as panacur, which I keep hearing doesn't work. And lower concentration. But yeah, cheaper. :/

Can anyone tell me what the 1+, 2+ 3+ numbers mean? The vet told me 11-30 for hooks and 1-10 (or something) for giardia. When I asked about the 3+ kind of number, she didn't know. I can't find anything online.

 

This is from my dogs online vet records:

 

--------------- Ova & Parasite Reporting Scheme --------------------- The number of eggs or parasites is the number on the entire slide (not per field) for each parasite reported... 1 seen = 1 egg or parasite seen on entire slide 1+ = 2-to-4 eggs or parasites (few) 2+ = 5-to-10 eggs or parasites (small) 3+ = 11-to-50 eggs or parasites (moderate) 4+ = >50 eggs or parasites (many) -------------------------------

[cgs]

Thanks! So I guess he's 3+.

 

I started him on the panacur tonight. I'm waiting until I get Advantage Multi (had to order it and needs vet approval) before I give him the Drontal. And I want to ask her about the panacur and drontal together and about the next round of panacur, which she said would be in 3 weeks.

[cgs]

Percy went out to poop and then started eating his poop! I banged on the window, which usually stops the little dog from doing whatever she shouldn't be doing, but it didn't deter him. I ran outside and yelled, but he had already eaten some. How are we supposed to get rid of worms if he's eating his poo? So gross! and are we at more risk of getting worms from him if he's eaten his poop and then comes inside and is licking his nose, licking himself, etc? Ugh. He came in and drank from Lulu's water bowl. We haven't had her tested yet, but I plan to, but if she doesn't have worms yet, eating his poop and then drinking from her bowl doesn't sound good.

[NewGrey2017]

Percy went out to poop and then started eating his poop! I banged on the window, which usually stops the little dog from doing whatever she shouldn't be doing, but it didn't deter him. I ran outside and yelled, but he had already eaten some. How are we supposed to get rid of worms if he's eating his poo? So gross! and are we at more risk of getting worms from him if he's eaten his poop and then comes inside and is licking his nose, licking himself, etc? Ugh. He came in and drank from Lulu's water bowl. We haven't had her tested yet, but I plan to, but if she doesn't have worms yet, eating his poop and then drinking from her bowl doesn't sound good.

 

If he has hookworms you need to clean up every poop every time he goes or you will never get rid of them. Hookworms live in the ground. If you have kids, don't let them walk where the dog goes with bare feet. I've read of people needing to get their yard treated to get rid of hookworms.

[cgs]

I have been cleaning up each time, but usually wait a little while to let it dry out and I don't follow him out to the yard with the scooper every time. I do watch him every time to see if he goes. No kids walking barefoot in the yard. Even when I clean up, there's some left because it's mushy. If I wait until it dries a bit, I have better luck getting it up.

[GreytXpctations]

Every grey I have taken in or fostered has had hooks coming in the door except the one we took in off Craigslist. He picked up hooks at a meet and greet (or from one of his sibs who was also at the m&g).

 

All my dogs, since my Aussie rescue days, have been on HeartGuard Plus (ivermectin and pyrantel pamoate) which contains ingredients that prevent worms from reaching maturity (including round, hook and whip), as well as preventing heartworm.

 

None of my dogs that were on monthly, year round, HG+ have ever had an issue with hooks once they were hook negative. Unfortunately, they ended up on generic HG for a couple of months (no Plus [pyrantel]) and had three events with fresh from the track greys who were all hook positive. One of my greys tested positive, one was symptomatic and one seemed ok. I dewormed them all using fenbendazole (Panacur, 8in1) as I have done with fosters and new dogs in the past and put them back on HG+ (with the pyrantel). This has always worked for me in the past. Tested all three dogs and got 2 negs and 1 positive. Retreat with fenbendazole, between monthly HG+ doses, and again 2 negs and a weak positive, although dogs seem to be better. Retreat with Drontal Plus (praziquantel/pyrantel pamoate/febantel) and three negs. Dogs are healthy, weight is good.

 

After talking with friends and acquaintances in a number of local groups (Tampa has about 7 now, I think), they are all saying that all the dogs coming in have hooks and that these hooks are very hard to get rid of. Many suspect that panacur no longer works, but most of the groups only give ivermectin for heartworm, so none of the dogs are getting pyrantel. I will not be attending any picnics or meet and greets with my dogs this year, since this is the only way that mine came into contact with with the hooks. Ticks are becoming a big problem again too, but that is another topic.

 

I suspect that Panacur may not be as effective as it was, and believe that Pyrantel is an important part of treatment and prevention ( I have felt this way about Pyrantel for years, due to my household hook free existence). I do not have any experience in using Drontal alone, so cannot attest to its effectiveness as a standalone treatment.

 

Like bacteria and some antibiotics, if there are some hooks that survive treatment by Panacur/8in1/fenbendazole, then they may be breeding Panacur resistant hooks. I do not know, but the vet said "it's possible", since it happens with antibiotics and flea preventatives.

 

Currently I am suggesting Panacur (or generic), HG+ monthly, then followup with Drontal for the second treatment just to cover the bases, because it worked for me and two other people that I suggested it to. I am not a vet and do not suggest doing this without vet involvement, but so far the vets seem open to this solution as well, because of the problems with hooks lately. At this point, I do not even know if the Panacur is necessary, but as mentioned above, I haven't tried treatment without it.

 

I am also fortunate in that I have two fenced yards (side and back), so that I can switch yards while treating the dogs to keep them from recontacting hooks. I pick up after my dogs daily.

 

This last episode was a rare event for me that I believe was due to a combination of dropping the "Plus" from HG+ and contact with a number of hook positive dogs. My dogs have contacted fresh track dogs many times before but have always been on HG+. But, treatment with panacur has always worked in the past as well.

 

Apparently, a couple of area groups have been having recurring problems with whipworm as well. Fortunately, this one seems to be easily knocked out.

[cgs]

I have HeartGuard Plus for him and was wondering if that was good enough for maintenance. I thought I've read here of people saying other things work better. I got 3 months of HG and who knows if he'll even be free of the hookworms by then. Do I even need to give it to him while he's on all this other medicine? I guess I need to ask the vet.

 

Tonight will be day 5 of the panacur. I haven't given the drontal yet--I think it has the same ingredient plus some others. I figured I'd wait until he was done with the panacur, but then he'd be bumping up his second dose of drontal (14 days later) with his second treatment of panacur (3 weeks later, which will fall on the same day.) So not sure what to do. I'm hoping the vet calls today with the results of Lulu's fecal test to see if she's got worms now too.

[cgs]

I did just talk to the vet. She said I can give the drontal any time. I was waiting until I received the Advantage Multi to go with it and that just arrived, so I'll give that today or tomorrow. I may give the drontal in the morning so he's not getting everything all at once in case he pukes it up. She also said I can hold off on heartguard because all the other stuff is covering that for now. She said retest fecal 6 weeks after treatment. It could be done sooner with hooks, but giardia takes longer to die off I guess, so she said wait for 6 weeks. Lulu's test was negative, so I'll retest her at that time also.

[cgs]

After talking to the vet, I went online to see if I could order the next dose of panacur and drontal cheaper than from them. 1800PetMeds looked about the same, but then I checked Amazon and just ordered from there. They didn't say I needed a prescription or anything.The panacur is $10/box instead of $20. The drontal is $44 for 2 tablets. Percy needs 1.5 tablets and I paid $57 at the vet. Anone else get meds off Amazon?

 

This is the drontal. It doesn't say drontal, but it's the same company, Bayer, and the same ingredients in the same amounts. And it came up when I searched for drontal plus.

https://www.amazon.com/Bayer-136mg-Large-Chewable-Dewormer/dp/B0713PL5ZX/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1521144024&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=drontal&psc=1

Edited March 15, 2018 by cgs

[NeylasMom]

Safeguard is actually the same as Panacur and even cheaper.

[NewGrey2017]

I did just talk to the vet. She said I can give the drontal any time. I was waiting until I received the Advantage Multi to go with it and that just arrived, so I'll give that today or tomorrow. I may give the drontal in the morning so he's not getting everything all at once in case he pukes it up. She also said I can hold off on heartguard because all the other stuff is covering that for now. She said retest fecal 6 weeks after treatment. It could be done sooner with hooks, but giardia takes longer to die off I guess, so she said wait for 6 weeks. Lulu's test was negative, so I'll retest her at that time also.

 

What worked for my dog was the Advantage Multi topical on a Friday followed by Drontal Plus on Saturday. This took him from 3+ hookworm level to 0. We had to break the Drontal into half pills and space throughout the day to get it in him and keep it down. We had to put it in the most cherished treats. By the third half pill he wouldn't even take it with peanut butter. We made sure to be home for 48 hours while giving Drontal because the first time we gave the whole dose around 5PM and he threw up around 2AM. Then there was a struggle to keep him from "re-ingesting" the product. (You haven't lived until you've challenged a snarling hound at 2AM over who gets ownership of the barf!)

 

After reading a lot on this site and other websites, I am of the opinion (my opinion, not fact) that there are different strains of hookworm in different parts of the country that react differently to different treatments. So, while panacur may have worked great for some, my dog did 3 rounds of it and stayed 3+ the entire time. My dog came from the track at Wheeling, WV straight to us. When we got him the agency gave us 1/2 a Drontal to give the next day. Then he went on Heartguard and when we got the hookworm diagnosis, panacur. Our vet wrote to the greyhound group at OSU who do a lot of work with West Virginia based dogs. That is where the protocol above came from.

[cgs]

My dog is from WV also, so I'm hoping this protocol works. I would think if your barfed 9 hours after the drontal, that the drontal got into him and maybe it was something else that made him barf. I remember reading your dog barfed it up, so I gave a half pill and then waited about 30 minutes and gave the rest. It says to give with food, so I wanted to do it all close to breakfast and not wait hours. So we'll see. I have him the advantage multi a couple hours later. The OSU document just says to give it within 24 hours and I've read to give them together, so I don't think it matters that much. I'll redose with both drontal and advantage multi in 14 days, per the OSU protocol and redose with panacur in 3 weeks per the vet for the giardia. (I'm not sure if it's 3 weeks from the first dose or 3 weeks from the last dose.) The OSU document also seems to say to give advantage multi every 2 weeks until hooks are gone. I have 6 doses, so I'll keep giving it.

[cgs]

It seemed hard to get the Advantage Multi on his skin vs his fur. Our little dog has long hair, which is easy to part, but I had trouble with parting Percy's hair. Hopefully enough of it got to his skin. I parted the hair with a comb and tried to hold it apart with my (gloved) fingers, but it still seemed hard.

[NeylasMom]

Panacur timing is from the first dose fyi, not last.

[cgs]

Ok, thanks. I figured I'd get around to asking the vet at some point. She also recommended fecal check at 6 weeks and again, I don't know if that's from start of treatment or end of treatment. I'm thinking end, since she said giardia can take a while to die off.

[NewGrey2017]

I had the same impression of the Advantage. There is a lot of liquid to get on him. I did it in 3 spots about 2 inches apart down his back to use all of it.

 

According to my vet, you can re-test for hook 7-10 days after the treatment of choice. No clue on giardia. Someone earlier mentioned having used metronidazole to treat giardia. I can't comment on that use for it, but my dog has been on metronidazole 3 times and it really improved his poop.

[cgs]

Does the poop go back to being worse when he's off it?

 

The vet did say you can retest for hooks sooner, but since giardia takes longer, she figured just do one test at 6 weeks. But I'd kind of like to know if the hooks are at least gone so I can re-treat if they're not, so I might do two tests.

 

Reading more about giardia and I'm starting to worry that will be hard to get rid of, though the vet said it's easier. I'm reading that they shed cysts and they need to be bathed and have their bedding washed. The giardia level was lower than hookworm, so hopefully not that bad? *sigh* I'm hoping this doesn't take months to knock out and that following the advice here works.