Pinch Collars

[silverfish]

It seems to me that 'pinch collars' are basically the same as 'prong collars' - is that correct? If not, what is the difference?

 

I find the whole concept of using pain as a training tool bewildering and disturbing, but it seems there are still trainers around promoting the use of these things, even for greyhounds. I have no experience of either pinch collars or prong collars (other than the one time someone came into the vet where I worked with their dog in a prong collar and were taken aside by the senior vet and given a talking to), so tell me; is there a difference and would you call a pinch collar acceptable?

I personally have quite strong views on the matter, but it is possible that the 'pinch collar' is kinder.

 

What do GT's trainers say?

[Batmom]

Same thing.

 

I have known people who use them in training. Long ago I thought they could be useful for some dogs. Now I think they're stupid. It's simpler, cheaper, and more effective over the long term to plant your dang feet if the dog hasn't yet learned not to pull. I'll stop there .

[silverfish]

This latest instance isn't even about pulling, Jey, it's about a greyhound statuing or lying down on walks.

[Batmom]

Good grief. That is exactly what you would NOT want to use it for! Way to make the dog even more reluctant to move, or even get bitten!

 

The only use *I* consider legit -- and again, I think it's far less effective than planting your feet, and I would neither use it nor recommend it -- is for helping to train a dog who lunges or pulls. The idea is that the lunger/puller corrects himself, by getting pinched if he lunges/pulls. One of the problems I see with this in training is that the dog knows quite well which collar he/she has on. Another problem is that some dogs will shut down.

[Sambuca]

It's being used on a greyhound?!? That's a sure way to rip the skin up. Disgusting.

 

I don't like them on any breed. I have seen them used with the prongs facing out so that if the dog is attacked the prongs protect it, which I think is fine since it's then a metal martingale.

[silverfish]

I'm afraid so, Sambuca. Recommended by a trainer, no less.

[Batmom]

Is the owner amenable to a little education (about stresses, threshholds, that "spoons" article, etc.)?

 

The best tools I know of for working with a *healthy* dog who statues/lies down on walks are 1. patience, 2. a pocketful of hot dog slivers, and 3. a gentle, bombproof dog friend to walk with.

[Roo]

I've used a prong/pinch collar once (the trainer [head vet tech at the shelter] who I was working with used the terms interchangeably). In that case, it was used on a young (barely a year old), large, unbelievably strong pit mix (my sweet Roxy). She didn't just pull - she pulled like she a sled dog on steroids going at full speed (I was the only volunteer who could control her, and I'm using the term "control" loosely here - I got really good at planting my feet and grabbing onto the nearest anchor with my free hand...so I was the only one who ever took her out). She also had a thing for cats (worse than our high prey drive greyhound!) and the shelter has a feral cat colony outside its gates - every time we went for a walk in the big fenced training area, she'd catch sight of a feral kitty and lunge with all her might. Anyway, the prong collar was the only way I could control her, but I didn't use it as a crutch - while she was in the prong collar, I trained her to heel and worked on clicker training with her. She caught on and I switched to a martingale after a while.

 

I hate seeing prong/pinch collars used as regular walking collars...it makes me hurt for them

Edited July 7, 2014 by Roo

[Batmom]

Roo's case is one I would make an exception for -- extremely strong and determined dog, nowhere to work without the distraction (cats), unpleasant consequences for failure, etc. Good job!

[greyhead]

Forgive me, as I know this isn't the question, but a dog who statues and lies down on walks may be a dog with a medical problem. Our vet said when the dog repeatedly stops, we should stop (and turn for home). We subsequently found several medical problems, including two TBDs, the kinds of things that don't show up in routine blood work. In short, that kind of behavior by a dog on a walk is against type and should give rise to suspicions of physical difficulty.

[Remolacha]

I can see using one on a dog with a strong, thick, muscular neck (like a pittie) while he is being trained, I tried one for awhile on my Boston Terrier who pulled like a freight train, but in he just ignored it. In the end, a harness worked much better. But on a greyhound? Never. and for statuing? So wrong!

[Hubcitypam]

I had to do the same as Roo with Barkley the terrier mix - strong willed, determined and bent on getting any and everything.. We worked with the prong collar for tor about a month and it's been retired to the hook ever since.

ETA - some people might refer to a choke collar (one loop of chain that tightens) as a pinch collar as it pinches the dogs neck when it tightens up. Pinch collars my look scarier but are more humane than choke collars as they distribute the pressure more evenly around the dogs neck.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Hubcitypam

[OwnedBySummer]

As far as I'm aware, prong and pinch collars are the same thing. And yup, I've used it (adopted a 10yo boy from the shelter who had zero leash manners but he was too large and strong for me to teach using a regular collar -- plus he ignored all corrections -- so I trained him using a prong collar. It worked great and he became the best boy ever!). It can be useful if you know what you're doing. But on a greyhound???? I wouldn't do it.

[Guest k9soul]

I seriously cringe at the thought of a prong or pinch collar on a greyhound.

[Yamaha_gurl]

Here's something eye opening to me: I'm on the do not adopt list for greyhounds because I let my greyhound off leash on dog beaches (that are far far away from roads/cities & after training recall for 2 solid years!) YET, a lady I know has her greyhound in a prong, YES greyhound in a prong collar, that she brings to meet & greets, and NO ONE says a word. That's messed, IMO.

[FiveRoooooers]

This latest instance isn't even about pulling, Jey, it's about a greyhound statuing or lying down on walks.

Isn't that counter-intuitive? omg

[silverfish]

Roo's case is one I would make an exception for -- extremely strong and determined dog, nowhere to work without the distraction (cats), unpleasant consequences for failure, etc. Good job!

 

Yes, I can see a case for using one as a training tool in that case.

 

Forgive me, as I know this isn't the question, but a dog who statues and lies down on walks may be a dog with a medical problem. Our vet said when the dog repeatedly stops, we should stop (and turn for home). We subsequently found several medical problems, including two TBDs, the kinds of things that don't show up in routine blood work. In short, that kind of behavior by a dog on a walk is against type and should give rise to suspicions of physical difficulty.

 

Well, exactly. It's the way I'd go; bloodwork, thorough exam by a grey-savvy vet, check things like 'is the pavement too hot' and 'are we going too far', and then it's down to gentle, understanding persuasion, and slow conditioning IMHO.

 

My lovely Renie statued when we first got her, so did Jeffie. These two dogs were/are very, very nervous and unsure because they were new to me and the sights and sounds in my area. Both were/are gentle, sensitive souls. If I'd known no better and had a trainer tell me to use a prong collar ... well, I think it would have caused so much silent suffering for Renie, and I doubt she'd have become confident enough to become the great therapy dog that she was. Actually, of course, they wouldn't register a dog on a prong collar - she wouldn't even have got into the assessment room wearing one. And Jeffie would almost certainly have started biting me through fear and stress and then who knows? Poor little guy might even have paid for that with his life in the wrong home.

 

It makes me sad and stressed just thinking about a greyhound in one of these things.

Isn't that counter-intuitive? omg

 

Um, yes. I was absolutely shocked that a trainer would suggest it. I can only hope s/he is not of the Cesar Milan school of thought - it brings Baby Girl back to mind and I'd really rather forget the torture that she went through for nothing.

 

If you haven't heard of Cesar Milan and Baby Girl the greyhound, trust me, you don't want to hear it.

[FiveRoooooers]

If you haven't heard of Cesar Milan and Baby Girl the greyhound, trust me, you don't want to hear it.

Unfortunately, I know.

[Remolacha]

Here's something eye opening to me: I'm on the do not adopt list for greyhounds because I let my greyhound off leash on dog beaches (that are far far away from roads/cities & after training recall for 2 solid years!) YET, a lady I know has her greyhound in a prong, YES greyhound in a prong collar, that she brings to meet & greets, and NO ONE says a word. That's messed, IMO.

 

That is messed up!

[gracegirl]

Here's something eye opening to me: I'm on the do not adopt list for greyhounds because I let my greyhound off leash on dog beaches (that are far far away from roads/cities & after training recall for 2 solid years!) YET, a lady I know has her greyhound in a prong, YES greyhound in a prong collar, that she brings to meet & greets, and NO ONE says a word. That's messed, IMO.

 

I also know a greyhound owner who has adopted THREE greyhounds and I have seen her use a prong collar on two of her three. I moved back to Denver before she got her third so I don't know if she ever used it on that puppy.

 

**I use a prong when walking my airedale. He weighs 90 lbs and if he decides to lunge, I am simply not strong enough to control him. I am also constantly training "watch me" and "leave it" but he is still unpredictable, especially around the unleashed dogs we occasionally come across. I use it for safety and never to give harsh corrections. DBF walks him with a regular buckle collar.

[3greytjoys]

 

A choke collar is a single metal chain. A pinch collar has metal spikes. Both are dangerous for dogs, but much more dangerous for Greyhounds. Our Greyhound adoption contracts include a clause that these collars are not to be used on Greyhounds. The veterinary and veterinary behaviorist medical community discourages the use of these collars.

 

Greyhounds' necks and throats are even more sensitive than other breeds. Greyhounds have no protective fat layer, no undercoat of fur, and barely any outer layer of fur. These types of collars can cause or contribute to severe medical problems such as laryngeal paralysis (paralyzed throat flaps that eventually suffocate dogs to death). Neck damage can cause permanent nerve damage that extends throughout the body and into hind legs. Many people would not notice gradual internal damage happening from these collars. Permanent and progressive medical damage can crop up years later.

 

Excerpt below explains some of the dangers of using prong collars:

 

"Choke and prong collars are designed to punish dogs for pulling by inflicting pain and discomfort. They can cause serious physical and emotional damage to dogs and should never be used.

The use of choke collars has been associated with whiplash, fainting, spinal cord injuries leading to paralysis, crushing of the trachea with partial or complete asphyxiation, crushing and/or fracture of the bones in the larynx, dislocated neck bones, bruising of the esophagus, bruising and damage to the skin and tissues in the neck, brain damage and prolapsed eyes caused by sharp increases in pressure in the head, and other injuries.

 

The metal spikes of prong collars pinch the skin around dogs' necks when they pull and can scratch or puncture them. Over time, this can cause dogs to develop scar tissue (which has no feeling) and/or build up a tolerance to the painful pinching sensation and thus continue to pull, making walks even more difficult. Dogs may interpret the tightening of a choke or prong collar around their neck as a stranglehold (which it is, after all!) and become fearful or even aggressive.

 

The most humane and safest option for walking a dog who tends to want to pull is a front-leash attachment harness, such as the Sense-ation. When dogs lunge or pull while wearing the Sense-ation harness, the front leash attachment redirects them back toward the dogwalker. With patience and positive reinforcement, walks can be a pleasant experience for both human and dog." End quote.

 

http://www.peta.org/about-peta/faq/what-are-the-dangers-of-using-choke-and-prong-collars/

 

Edited July 13, 2014 by 3greytjoys

[GeorgeofNE]

Prong collar and pinch collar are the same. Most people today have NO IDEA how to properly use or fit one (you take the collar apart to put it on).

 

I used one on my Pit bull/shepherd mix when he was young, but only after fitting it to my own thigh and giving myself a "correction" and seeing it is no more uncomfortable than a choke collar. Like anything else, it can be a proper tool if used by someone who knows how to use it. But anyone who would put one on a greyhound is not someone I would trust to go anywhere near my dog.

 

Clearly they don't know a thing about Greyhound skin!

[GreytHoundPoet]

Are the people that are putting them on Greyhounds using the rubber ends that cover the sharper metal?

Edited July 8, 2014 by GreytHoundPoet

[silverfish]

Prong collar and pinch collar are the same. Most people today have NO IDEA how to properly use or fit one (you take the collar apart to put it on).

 

I used one on my Pit bull/shepherd mix when he was young, but only after fitting it to my own thigh and giving myself a "correction" and seeing it is no more uncomfortable than a choke collar. Like anything else, it can be a proper tool if used by someone who knows how to use it. But anyone who would put one on a greyhound is not someone I would trust to go anywhere near my dog.

 

Clearly they don't know a thing about Greyhound skin!

 

This was my thought. I mean, I don't care for them on any dog and I don't think they're at all suited for permanent use, but on a really strong, high-discomfort/pain threshold dog with a good layer of subQ fat and a nice thick coat they'd be an entirely different proposition than on a sighthound. No subcutaneous fat, thin skin and low hair makes them 100% unsuitable for a greyhound in my opinion.

 

Even with the rubber tips - that might prevent them from tearing the skin, but there would almost certainly be bruising, unless the owner was extremely skillful in using it - and if it's possible to use it so that it never 'grabs' the dog and gives the correction, why are you even using it?

Edited July 8, 2014 by silverfish

[NeylasMom]

I can see using one on a dog with a strong, thick, muscular neck (like a pittie) while he is being trained, I tried one for awhile on my Boston Terrier who pulled like a freight train, but in he just ignored it. In the end, a harness worked much better. But on a greyhound? Never. and for statuing? So wrong!

This pretty much sums it up. In the 9+ months I've been apprenticing, Liz has recommended a prong collar in ONE situation, a young bulldog who just could not be controlled otherwise. The dog had no aggression issues (that's asking for trouble, a dog who is already aggressive or reactive toward other dogs and then you add pain to the situation) and the owner was instructed on how to fit it and use it so that it didn't tighten up (no choking, just the pressure if the dog pulled). In that situation, it worked very well, while the owner (who is an excellent trainer) continued to work with him.

 

On a greyhound, no freaking excuse. Especially one that is statuing (likely fear or medical issues). That person needs to find a new "trainer" ASAP.