Back To Ground Zero

[Guest grey_dreams]

Zhivaya was a special needs adoption because of his extreme fear. That was as much as I knew at the time. I quickly discovered that he has noise phobia. The train is his biggest trigger, but unfortunately we live about 1000 feet from a train track. I used to yawn all the time as soon as I heard a train, but he is insensitive to calming signals. He shuts down so it can't be counter-conditioned. His second biggest noise phobia trigger is any sound emitted by children/teens, especially screaming, yelling, and skateboards. He totally shuts downs, extreme panic and fear. He used to have noise phobia for cars, trucks, motorcycles, but luckily we've been able to mostly work through those. He is terrified of outside. I live in a mostly quiet neighborhood surrounded by woods, with about 7 miles (one-way) of nature trails along the river and lake. I don't have a yard and we have to walk, and sometimes we see other humans or kids, and he is also terrified of that, even if the human is more than 50-75 feet away. Luckily, he is not terrified of other humans when we go to the vet, and he is ok with the vet and techs.

 

During the year he has been with me he was very slowly making some progress. We got to the point where sometimes he would even run downstairs with Zariel to get his collar for a walk. That was all totally undone by two incidents about three weeks ago. It was a fine day, so we went to a local lake for a walk. When I was getting him out of the car, some kids in the park started screaming, and he completely refused to get out of the car. So then I loaded Zariel up again (he was already out and ready to walk), drove to a different parking lot, and tried again. In the worst possible stroke of bad luck, just as I was trying to get him out of the car, a train blew its whistle about a mile away, and he went into a full-blown panic attack emotional meltdown. I left him in the car, took Zariel for a turn in the lot, and then left to take him home. Got him home, then took Zariel back out for the walk at the lake he had been promised.

 

Since then, Zhivaya basically refuses to leave his safe bed. I have to use trickery to get him up and out to pee/poo. I can only get him out twice a day, because if I try more than that, he physically fights me. I'm not going to push him, because the situation is so tense that it could rapidly deteriorate further.

 

I started him on Clomicalm two weeks ago. He weighs 82 pounds. The vet started with a dosage of 40 mg twice a day (half of the 80 mg tablet). Within two days, his noise phobia increased, and he became afraid of the refrigerator and dishwasher. I was watching that closely, and it leveled off, and then decreased. I talked with the vet and he said to just keep with the Clomicalm and watch closely. I've now increased the dosage to 120 mg per day (80 in the morning and 40 in the evening). So far, it doesn't really seem to help much. It will be two weeks on Clomicalm this Thursday evening. I know it takes a while for it to build up in the system, so we will stick with it for a while longer. I had wanted to try buspirone because of the good result Jen had with Reagen's noise phobia, but the vet wanted to try Clomicalm first.

 

Yesterday I started NILIF by controlling his meal portions. He gets fed if he gets up out of his safe bed and lets me take him outside to pee/poo. I have to use trickery to get him up, and entice him by feeding Zariel stinky sardines or tuna in his presence. Yesterday he finally got up when he got hungry, for both breakfast and dinner. I'm feeding approximately half portions because it seems the only way he will get up voluntarily is for food, so I will try to keep him hungry (he is a good weight and no danger of becoming too skinny at this time). Yesterday after he got up for breakfast I closed the door to the bedroom, closing off his safe spot/bed, and made him spend the day in the office with me, Zariel, and Zola, where there are three comfy dog beds. So far today, he hasn't got up yet. He's psychotic, but smart, and he knows that door will close again today when he gets up (I just wish he would learn that nothing really hurts him when he is outside; the sound is just a sound). He last went out to pee/poo at 8:30 pm yesterday evening

 

After 15 months, we are back at ground zero (or even worse). I don't know how to reach this dog. I wish we lived far from the tracks and any children, but for now, that's simply not an option.

 

 

Here's a photo of him at the lake in better days.

 

[Remolacha]

He is beautiful, I am so sorry that he is so afraid. Poor boy.

[robinw]

I'm so sorry. Iker was started on Clomicalm last year; 40mg. He did terribly on it and was taken off fairly quickly. He stopped eating and never got up. I started him on it again last month, starting with 10mg and increasing it by 10mg every two weeks. We're up to 30 now and he is doing really well. Maybe a gradual increase might work?

 

He sounds like Iker. I can't take him for a walk if there are any signs of people anyplace, even with the Clomicalm. He got away from me twice, and ran straight to my front door both times. He is happiest in my room, where he feels safe, just like you've described Zhivaya. He is afraid of kids, bicycles, men, cars, trains, you name it. I think sometimes we just have to accept their personalities and love them for who they are, not who we wish they were (I'm not saying that you're doing, i mean in general).

 

I had a great session with an animal behaviourist via Skype. She suggested that I was starting desensitization in steps that were too big. She had me start to toss treats to Iker while he was comfortable and laying down. Every time I changed, like stood up, I tossed him more. Eventually I will start to toss him treats as we leave the house, but we haven't gotten that far yet.

[Guest grey_dreams]

Thank you both for your input. It's noon, and he won't get up even for sardines. Just lays in his safe spot like a sack of potatoes. I've decided to really back down on the Clomicalm dosage, maybe 20 mg twice a day, and try that for a while.

[XTRAWLD]

While Ryder is no where near this level of fear, he's very fearful of anything like a compressor or a nail gun when we are out for our walks. It's game over if he hears any inkling of this and pulls to the point of choking himself back to the house and quickly as possible. If he ever got loose, I'd probably never find him again, so I know how you feel for sure. I've been able to try to get him over this by very long, sensory stimulating walks. I know Zhivaya probably can't handle that, as most that are that fearful wouldn't be able to. One hour, very tiring walk, with exposure to cars and buses and people and noise resets Ryder's clock and he stops looking at rooftops for roofers with nail guns.

 

I really wish you all the best. I know it must be so disheartening.

[Guest grey_dreams]

Thank you. Last fall we did get to the point where Zhivaya would go for longer walks with us. The whole river route is a 2.5 hour walk, and the trailhead is 3 minutes walk from my front door. I love to do that a few times a week when the weather is fine. I work from home and make my own schedule, so we are lucky that we can go during the day when there are few people. The trails are very quiet and peaceful except for the sound of trains about 1-2 miles away and the rare person. Some walks we would only hear one train, some walks there were three or four. He even got to the point where he would only perk his head up at the sound, but not react in any other way (no panic attack, no flailing on the leash, no emotional meltdown). I pray that we will find our way back to that point again.

[Remolacha]

Not an expert by any means, but having proved he can get to that good place, I believe with plenty of time and patience, he can get there again

[Guest grey_dreams]

Thank you. I need to try to focus on that. Thanks for reminding me

[Guest grey_dreams]

After sitting with him with some sardines for half an hour, he finally got up to eat the sardines and I managed to get him out of the bedroom. He still refused to come downstairs and go outside. He's now laying just outside the bedroom door. It's been 17 hours since he went out to pee/poo and since his last meal

[scullysmum]

I am sorry to hear that you have been having such setbacks.

 

My new boy seems to be rather sound sensitive, he has only been with me five days so I'm not worrying too much just yet, I am going to start doing TTouch with him, I did this with my last girl Sadi when we first had her and she was very anxious and fearful.

I am sure that it helped her and it certainly seemed to improve the bond between us which also helped her to gain confidence, because she trusted me not to let bad things (what she percieved and real) happen to her.

 

 

http://www.ttouch.com/whyTTouch.shtml

 

http://www.xtradog.com/ttouch-for-your-dog/noise-sensitivity.html

Edited April 9, 2014 by scullysmum

[Guest grey_dreams]

scullysmom: Thanks a lot for the links and the reminders. I used to take Zuki to a T-Touch master when he first came home. She showed me a lot of the touches, but I haven't been a steady practitioner. I had been thinking a few days ago that maybe I should try that with Zhivaya, but hadn't gotten farther than the bodywrap using an Ace bandage. The bodywrap was helping. Just now, when a train went by (you can hardly hear it inside my house, but it is barely audible and sends Zhivaya into a panic), I started doing the ear, face, and chest touches combined with some whole-body strokes. The whole time I was yawning like crazy. Finally, he yawned too, and even chattered a little So I will try to keep up with that. I'm also going to revisit my acupressure book that has some point work for fear/anxiety.

 

He still won't go out. It's been 20 hours since the last pee/poo I finally broke down and gave him a little kibble because his stomach was starting to gurgle (so much for NILIF...).

 

I am really hoping that this is a side effect from too high Clomicalm dosage. At least before, he would go out a couple times a day. He wouldn't even come downstairs when I peeled a banana, which usually gets him going because he loves them so much.

[greysmom]

My spook is also sound sensitive - to any sort of windy-rainy-whooshing sound, and of course, I live in Oregon where that's the weather about 90% of the time!

 

We had to try several anti-anxiety meds before finding one that worked. Clomicalm is the one most vets start with because it's the one made specificaly for canines. It's a tri-cyclic antidepressant. We also tried Xanax/alprazolam (a benzodiazepine), Prozac/fluoxetine (an SSRI), and one other one I always forget , before trying Paxil/paroxetine (also an SSRI). The Paxil worked really well for about 2 1/2 years, combined with xanax for situational fears like fireworks.

 

Then last July she went into the e-vet for a short, 3 day stay. They *never* give her her anti-anxiety pills in the hospital. But she came home and was totally fine without them! Really. Just almost like a normal dog! Until we had a super bad wind storm mid-January. She had a bad meltdown - like Zhivaya's - and I put her back on her Paxil. Except it didn't work as well as before. So, we are now trying Trazdone for every day use. Trazadone is a relatively new drug for dogs, and has mostly been used for short-term, fast-acting situational fear since it takes effect very quickly for an SARI. One dose will usually get her through the main part of the day, even though it's supposed to be redosed every 8-12 hours. Trazadone is a very safe drug comparatively, with very few side effects. It also doesn't have many interactions with other drugs.

 

The difference has been really remarkable for her. At least as good, if not better, than her Paxil/Xanax combination. She can eat without looking around for her "ghosts" every second. She can go outside and sniff around and dig and play without being scared of every leaf or limb that moves in the wind. She can sleep without waking up every time the house creaks and pops.

 

The moral of the story is that you may need to try several drugs, or different classes of drugs, and/or different dosages before you find one that works for your dog and his particular chemistry.

 

And just to give you another thing to think about:

 

My vet shows horses and uses these for her animals that have sound issues in the ring. They are soft, squishy ear plug-type things that are specially made to go in ear canals and not become dislodged when the horse shakes its head. They can still hear, but everything is muffled to a level that's acceptable. They are washable and reusable, as well. She's going to try and get me one of hers to try with Cash (one horse size Pomm can be cut in half or smaller to use for a dog).

[Guest grey_dreams]

Thanks Chris. I'm going to keep the Trazadone in mind and bring it up with my vet. They wanted to start off with Clomicalm, even though I specifically asked for buspirone, and I agreed to try the Clomicalm first. I used Clomicalm previously for Zuki, who had severe separation anxiety when he first came home. It worked wonderfully for him, so I was willing to give it a try. As of today (almost two weeks in), I'm not really happy with it's effect on Zhivaya.

 

I finally tricked him to get up by opening the bedroom door, quickly put his spook harness on, and hauled/dragged all 82 pounds of protesting dog down the stairs. Hated to do that, but a whole day without urinating can't be good. Amazingly, once we got downstairs he was absolutely fine to go through the door and outside, where he took the biggest pee in the history of earth.

 

I've left the harness on for now. Might have to haul him down again tonight.

[Guest Downtownhoundz]

I also have a spook who was terrified of everything and would just freeze and tremble all over. That was four years ago. He is still somewhat spooky of other people, but he has come a long way...patience really is a virtue with dogs like these. I've heard good things about animal communicators. I've never used one but I know others who have...might be worth a shot. Baby steps,teeny tiny baby steps,dear.

[Guest FinnsMama]

Have you had him checked out by a veterinarian? Perhaps you can find one that will come to the house so he won't have to be traumatized even more. I would suggest a complete blood test. I had a big black boy who spent all of his time hiding in the back part of the house. I kept having him checked out until my vet found he had an obscure illness called Babesia. It is a tick borne disease that is only found in kennels. He must have had it for years and it is easily treated once diagnosed. His only other symptom was a very low platelet count. My vet called all over the U.S. till she found more info. Once he was properly diagnosed and treated he was a whole new dog. He lived another 7 years.

[macoduck]

We use trazadone occasionally for Mazy. My vet and I are pleased with the results. The dose lasts 4 hours and she does not act woozy while on it.

[Guest FinnsMama]

The boy I have now is terrified of thunderstorms. We live in Oklahoma so we have some long spells of storms. He literally lives in my closet during these storms. His record for not going out to potty was 36 hours. I drug him outside couple of times but I could not make him do anything. I don't think my vets believe me but I know he did not pee for 36 hours. He survived it too!

Have you heard the saying that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink? Well this was like that.

 

Finn also takes prescription Elavil from the Veterinarian. He takes 50mg twice a day everyday for his anxiety. Before that he was, sort of, manic depressive. He would have times where wanted something all the time, then hide for hours and be afraid of everything. He also eats yogurt to protect his digestive tract from all of his anxieties.

 

Good luck!

[Guest LazyBlaze]

grey_dreams, in a similar vein to the T-Touch suggestion, do you know anyone you might borrow a Thundershirt from? Might be worth a shot. In my experience the shirts do seem to take the edge off the fear. Also maybe some DAP spray on a bandana? Apologies if you have tried these already.

My heart goes out to you and Zhivaya - I'm certain you'll make progress with him again, but know it must be so disheartening. Blaze has extreme fear reactions (shuts down, trembles and urinates) to marching bands, which we get a lot in summer in Glasgow unfortunately, but at least we can take steps to avoid them.

Hang in there .

[Sambuca]

Have a you tried sound effect CDs? You start with them really low, as in so quiet you can't even hear it and turn it up just the slightest bit every few days/weeks.

[Guest grey_dreams]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. He had full blood chemistry and tests three months ago. The results were excellent/good and no sign of any viral diseases. The full thyroid panel also came back with reasonable results for sighthound. I have a DAP diffuser permanently plugged in near his bed/safe spot in my bedroom where he spends most of the day. Before we tried Clomicalm, he was getting theanine and inositol. He was doing really well with that combination before the meltdown in the car. (I was even hopefully planning that we would finally be able to go to the Rescued Racers summer picnic, and I could introduce him to everyone). I weaned off theanine and inositol during the first week on Clomicalm because the vet was concerned about potential interactions (even though theanine is just an amino acid and inositol is a natural compound in cells).

 

Last night, even though I know he was starving, he did not come down for dinner. I finally just brought the bowl up for him and held it while he ravenously devoured his dinner I withheld the Clomicalm dosage last night.

 

This morning, he was almost his normal self. Playful and loving when we first woke. He refused to get off of his safe bed and come down stairs to go for the first small walk with me and Zariel, but to my pure joy, he was waiting for us at the front door when we got back, and let me put his collar on and take him out. And then stayed with me downstairs while I prepared the breakfast, and ravenously devoured his. He got extra cookies after that.

 

So it does seem that he had a severe adverse reaction to Clomicalm. I also noticed that his feet and lower legs were like ice cold yesterday. But today they are normal temperature. That was probably from the Clomicalm too. I've stopped the Clomicalm for now. He got his normal theanine this morning.

 

Thanks for all the suggestions and stories. I'm going to order Zylkene, which is now available in the US. I will probably ask the vet about Trazadone. Maybe we will still try Buspirone, which helped Jen's Reagan's noise phobia. And I'm still reading through the generous book donation about fearful dogs (THANK YOU!).

[Guest grey_dreams]

Have a you tried sound effect CDs? You start with them really low, as in so quiet you can't even hear it and turn it up just the slightest bit every few days/weeks.

 

We haven't tried a sound effect CD. Inside my house when the windows are closed, and especially if the heater/air conditioner is running, you can just barely hear the trains go by (they don't blow the whistle near to where we live). But I think he can feel it. Outside, even I can feel it, and the sound of the wheels clanking is fairly loud. I barely noticed the trains before Zhivaya came to live with us. The very first time that Zuki and Zariel saw a train go by here, they were surprised but not afraid, and after that they barely noticed them.

 

I asked about Zhivaya's train phobia when he first came home, and got a lot of responses that "it's just because they don't have trains at greyhound race tracks". In the Midwest, there are a lot of train lines. Later on, I read someone who was a trainer/owner and worked for years at greyhound race tracks talking about some of the old stories and said there was one greyhound race track where a train line ran exactly adjacent to one of the kennels where the greyhounds were kept, and they almost always blew the train horn just at that location (he said they did it out of spite), He said that most of the dogs would freak out. If Zhivaya had been in a situation like that (I don't know which track it was and I don't know if he was there or not), in his crate, with his disposition, that would have been sheer torture for him. If something like that went on, day after day, then it could explain (at least partially) why he is so psychotic today.

[Remolacha]

I am glad to hear he is doing better. Sounds like the colmicom was making things worse! I hope he is able to keep moving forward from this

[Guest FinnsMama]

I am also so glad to hear things are much better! It is so hard to figure out what happens or happened to them. I think Adopting a Greyhound is like adopting a special needs child. You have to have lots of patience and understanding.

[galgrey]

Just read about this and thought I'd mention a product I saw advertised in Animal Wellness Magazine. It's call Serin Vet.

 

"Serenin Vet™ is a unique blend of 11 natural and complementary ingredients, which down-regulate the many triggers that over-stimulate the canine brain, leading to undesirable and damaging behaviors." They mention anxiety and noise phobia. Here's a link to the article and a list of the ingredients if you're interested: http://www.animalwellnessmagazine.com/articles/natural-help-for-anxiety-and-behavioral-problems/

 

Hope you find something that works for him soon.

[Guest grey_dreams]

Update:

 

Five days after stopping the Clomicalm, Zhivaya was still in a very bad way, refusing to go outside more than once a day. Yesterday the Zylkene arrived. Today he got the second dose, and it's already helping. He went outside (with a little coaxing) four times! He even stopped to smell some interesting spots and wanted to do a couple of butt-tuck zoomies!!! That Zylkene is as magical as I remember!

 

This evening we had a consult with Marta Williams. She gave me some insight into what is going on with him and some great advice and information.