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Sleep Startle From Movement?


Guest BiggiesOwner

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Guest BiggiesOwner

Just wondering if anyone else's dog has sleep startle from non-touch or space issues?

 

Biggie's bed is in front of my tv and faces the couch - at least once a week (sometimes more) he lifts his head up snarling/barking/growling in my direction after I make a movement like lifting a drink glass or grabbing a pillow. It is super weird - I can walk past his bed with no issues when he is sleeping! His bed is a good four feet from the couch with a coffee table in between.

 

I'm thinking maybe if he's half asleep the sudden movement might startle him? It's so odd because he is looking right at me for a 20-30 seconds growling and then goes back to sleep!

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Yes, it's certainly possible. Some sound or a vibration of the floor might be causing it, or a shadow from passing in front of a light. I also sometimes wonder if they dream and startle themselves.

 

Just to be safe - because we've had several with severe reactions - I never walk near a sleeping greyhound without waking them up first. It's something both DH and I do out of habit now, even with dogs who have no space issues. Our first greyhound drew blood on both of us several times before she finally got us trained!

Chris - Mom to: Felicity (DeLand), and Andi (Braska Pandora)

52592535884_69debcd9b4.jpgsiggy by Chris Harper, on Flickr

Angels: Libby (Everlast), Dorie (Dog Gone Holly), Dude (TNJ VooDoo), Copper (Kid's Copper), Cash (GSI Payncash), Toni (LPH Cry Baby), Whiskey (KT's Phys Ed), Atom, Lilly

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I dogsat a Greyhound like this. Her bed was a couple feet from the couch, and sometimes if I switched positions on the couch or reached for my tea she would wake and snarl and growl. It startled me a lot at first, but then I realized it was her thing and didn't fret when she did it. I did, however, always call out to wake her up before I physically got up from the couch or walked by her bed... just in case.

siggie_zpse3afb243.jpg

 

Bri and Mike with Boo Radley (Williejohnwalker), Bubba (Carlos Danger), and the feline friends foes, Loois and Amir

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Wendy does this. There seems to be no apparent reason that we humans can detect. She seems embarrassed afterwards - "Did I do that?" :blush

Irene ~ Owned and Operated by Jenny (Jenny Rocks ~ 11/24/17) ~ JRo, Jenny from the Track

Lola (AMF Won't Forget ~ 04/29/15 -07/22/19) - My girl. I'll always love you.

Wendy (Lost Footing ~ 12/11/05 - 08/18/17) ~ Forever in our hearts. "I am yours, you are mine".

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Guest BiggiesOwner

Thank you all - I wish Biggie would show a little more remorse like Wendy! He seems to just think of it as an inconvenience to his snoozing!

 

Now I guess I just keep some treats nearby to see if we can associate the wake up with more pleasant things....I'd like to not get snarled at during relaxing time.

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Guest MnMDogs

Mork did that the first year or 2 I had him...it was quite alarming as it came out of nowhere. He seemed as shocked as I was when he did it. It stopped after a couple years.

Edited by MnMDogs
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Thank you all - I wish Biggie would show a little more remorse like Wendy! He seems to just think of it as an inconvenience to his snoozing!

 

Now I guess I just keep some treats nearby to see if we can associate the wake up with more pleasant things....I'd like to not get snarled at during relaxing time.

Yep, you've got it. Same concept as what you were doing with your dad. Try to get that treat to him before he starts growling, but don't worry too much if your timing isn't perfect. Counterintuitive I know, but you're using the food to change his feelings about being disturbed by associating the food with those things so over time the reaction will stop and you'll start getting that familiar eyes bright, ears up, where's my food look. :)

 

FYI, there's no evidence that dogs feel guilt or remorse. How would they in a situatiin like this? theyd have to have some inherent knowledge that what they're doing is wrong (except that what they're doing is perfectly right in the dog world - see the dilemma). In Wendy's case, she is probably picking up in her owners displeasure in response to the growling. It's the same as people who say their dog looks guilty when they come home because they've pooped, gone in the trash, etc. Nope, they've just learned their owners will be upset when they get home so they start showing appeasement behaviors. There was an interesting study done on this recently.

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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I was joking when I said that Wendy feels embarrassed for sleep-snarking. :) We don't scold her or demonstrate any displeasure. It's kind of endearing, really.

Irene ~ Owned and Operated by Jenny (Jenny Rocks ~ 11/24/17) ~ JRo, Jenny from the Track

Lola (AMF Won't Forget ~ 04/29/15 -07/22/19) - My girl. I'll always love you.

Wendy (Lost Footing ~ 12/11/05 - 08/18/17) ~ Forever in our hearts. "I am yours, you are mine".

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  • 4 weeks later...
Guest BiggiesOwner

Hi All,

 

I've been trying to keep using positive reinforcement with the sleep startle (treats and happy voices if I don't have treats on hand) but if anything it seems to be more frequent if anything now...almost every day - sometimes multiple times.

 

I know I'm probably expecting too much too soon (it's only been 5 months) it just seems so odd that this problem has gotten worse not improved as Biggie has been with us. I'm kind of worried maybe it's a medical issue or something more than sleep startle?

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I can't remember, have you brought in a PR trainer yet? If not, I think it's probably time. Unfortunately there's a limit to how much we can help you without being there to see what's going on. I certainly think having him evaluated by a vet if you haven't yet is a good idea, but otherwise it's tough to say what's going on. It could be as simple as timing on the counter-conditioning. Certainly if you've been working on the training regularly you should be seeing a positive reaction from him when touched/startled awake. But without someone to show you what to do, perhaps something is getting lost in translation?

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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Guest LindsaySF

My Teagan still does this at night and I've had him for years. Getting him an elevated bed and putting a baby gate in front of it at night has helped him feel safe from the other dogs. I also tossed cookies onto his bed so he would wake up and find something positive. I still hear growls from his direction at least twice a week.

 

During the day he chooses a dog bed off in the corner, a low-traffic area, and he's pretty quiet. If someone else takes that bed and he ends up in one of the beds in the center of the room, every time another dog moves, and sometimes if I walk around, he lifts his head with a growl.

 

Try moving your dog's bed to somewhere he will feel more safe. In a corner, behind a coffee table, somewhere sheltered a little bit and a little ways away from where you will be walking or sitting on the couch. Or put the bed in a crate with the door open. My guess is the bed's current location might be part of the issue.

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Guest BiggiesOwner

I had contacted a trainer prior to the sleep startle worsening - she had previously said it sounded like Biggie just needed some group classes to work on his confidence/obedience. Now she's agreed we probably need private sessions. I'm not giving up on Biggie yet! I'm hoping that working with the trainer will pin point what I've been doing wrong or give me some new strategies to work on.

 

Unfortunately we live in an old house with very tiny rooms - it is very difficult to find a truly low traffic area. Even a spot in the corner will have a person within 5 or 6 feet. We've tried putting Biggie's bed in a room that we spend less time in - but he loves being in the same room as us and will just sleep on the floor ( often in more inconvenient places).

 

Thank you all for the input - it's nice to hear it isn't just Biggie being nuts :/ fingers crossed the trainer comes through - Biggie is really such a wonderful sweet boy now when he's awake

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Guest BiggiesOwner

Quick update - we met with the trainer and she thinks Biggie has more of a very sensitive kind of space aggression rather than sleep startle - which does explain why it has been a bit worse with some people more than others (5 times in an hour with my bf - once or twice a day with me). She feels like Biggie is much more "settled in" now and is getting very possessive of his bed (ie he doesn't want any making weird movements and noises when he is in it). This seems to explain why the positive reinforcement methods I was using weren't effective/might have backfired a bit - so I'm very open to trying a new approach after a month of seeing no positive improvement.

 

The new approach we're going to be using is when Biggie does snarl/bark at us from his bed: we walk over to it, calmly use a negative verbal cue ("nuh-uh") and then using a leash lasso to escort him to his crate for a "time out". The trainer says her thinking behind this is that if he wants to bark and snarl over his bed then he loses his bed privileges for a short spell. In addition to the new approach to the snarling from bed itself she's recommended that we have him sleep in his crate with the door shut to help him feel a bit more secure. Previously he's been sleeping in his crate with the door open or just in his bed in the living room (we stopped having him sleep in our room because he was snarling so many times throughout the night and we needed sleep!).

 

Fingers crossed this does the trick - first night the sleeping with the crate door closed did not go well - howling greyhound at 1am :(

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Guest LazyBlaze

I'd be interested to hear how this goes, please keep us updated.

 

Blaze has ongoing space/sleep startle issues (that we've been trying to address with counter conditioning and positive reinforcement) but there are times when I wonder if he is just being slightly bratty about his space and maybe I ought to be a little firmer with him as far as privileges go. He has lots of beds and places to lie in the house, but likes to lie on the sofa-bed beside me (there is plenty of room for hound and human). We don't have a crate. These days he seems to seek out more cuddles; this is :wub: but also kinda :yikes for me at times. Certain movements, particularly in his peripheral vision, can have him growling and maybe even snarling. It's like he really wants to be close to us, but can't help being a grumpy boy (or has decided that grumps get results!). One thing's for sure, my pins-and-needles tolerance has rocketed :hehe .

 

Probably I need to chuck him off the sofa-bed for growling, but I'd like to work through it somehow.

 

Anyway, best of luck with Biggie! Let us know how it goes.

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Quick update - we met with the trainer and she thinks Biggie has more of a very sensitive kind of space aggression rather than sleep startle - which does explain why it has been a bit worse with some people more than others (5 times in an hour with my bf - once or twice a day with me). She feels like Biggie is much more "settled in" now and is getting very possessive of his bed (ie he doesn't want any making weird movements and noises when he is in it). This seems to explain why the positive reinforcement methods I was using weren't effective/might have backfired a bit - so I'm very open to trying a new approach after a month of seeing no positive improvement.

 

The new approach we're going to be using is when Biggie does snarl/bark at us from his bed: we walk over to it, calmly use a negative verbal cue ("nuh-uh") and then using a leash lasso to escort him to his crate for a "time out". The trainer says her thinking behind this is that if he wants to bark and snarl over his bed then he loses his bed privileges for a short spell. In addition to the new approach to the snarling from bed itself she's recommended that we have him sleep in his crate with the door shut to help him feel a bit more secure. Previously he's been sleeping in his crate with the door open or just in his bed in the living room (we stopped having him sleep in our room because he was snarling so many times throughout the night and we needed sleep!).

 

Fingers crossed this does the trick - first night the sleeping with the crate door closed did not go well - howling greyhound at 1am :(

I think the trainer's assessment that this is space aggression is a good one, but fyi that doesn't mean that classical counter-conditioning wouldn't help. I still feel that reinforcement of good behavior on the bed when people approach/move should be used in conjunction. For the record. :P

 

Having said that, I don't disagree with your trainer's suggestion. I often recommend something similar for dogs that growl or react in some way when on furniture and the only difference here is that he's on his bed rather than the furniture. However, why not teach Biggie a cue to get off of his bed (and/or one to go in his crate) rather than physicially moving him?

 

My concern, especially given his history is that he's going to very quickly anticipate what you approaching with the leash means and increase his reactivity. Worst case scenario, someone is going to get bitten. It's easy enough to teach an "off" cue (say "off", toss a really yummy treat onto the floor far enough away that he has to get up to get it - just make sure he sees you toss it) and not much harder to teach a "go in your crate" cue. He's still getting the message - if you want to remain on your bed, you don't get to growl at people, but you're not physically moving him and in doing so, pushing the issue that's causing the aggression in the first place. That's my two cents, fwiw. :)

Good luck!

Edited by NeylasMom

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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Guest BiggiesOwner

My concern, especially given his history is that he's going to very quickly anticipate what you approaching with the leash means and increase his reactivity. Worst case scenario, someone is going to get bitten. It's easy enough to teach an "off" cue (say "off", toss a really yummy treat onto the floor far enough away that he has to get up to get it - just make sure he sees you toss it) and not much harder to teach a "go in your crate" cue. He's still getting the message - if you want to remain on your bed, you don't get to growl at people, but you're not physically moving him and in doing so, pushing the issue that's causing the aggression in the first place. That's my two cents, fwiw. :)

Good luck!

 

Hi NeylasMom! I was a bit concerned about that as well - but I do have to say that Biggie does seem to be a very eager to please dog once he figures out what we want him to do. After the first two times of using "the lasso method" he now just gets up and starts walking to his crate on his own when we put the lead loosely around his neck - no pulling needed. He certainly isn't overjoyed about it - but he seems to have pretty quickly figured out what standard operating procedure was.

 

We're also trying to teach him an "off" cue as well now - seems like it would be super useful! So far it only seems to work when Biggie wants to get up - but we'll keep at it!

 

Today is the start of Day 6 using the new training method for the space aggression and I have to say the improvement we've seen is pretty surprising (I thought it would take much longer to see measurable results). Yesterday (Day 5) was the first snarling free day we'd had in our house in over a month! With each passing day of using the new method we noticed an increase of Biggie just raising his head and giving us the stink eye without the ensuing snarling/barking that would usually follow. We give him lots of praise and belly rubs for every time his head pops up without a snarl/bark. Dirty "how dare you disturb my slumber" looks are infinitely preferable to having an 85lb "demon dog" snarling and barking at us multiple times a day.

 

I know there is probably a lot more snarling to work through in the days ahead of us - but I really am feeling very optimistic that this new method seems to be working and that Biggie seems like he is "getting it" by holding back on the snarling more.

 

Annd of course I was typing this Biggie just gave me a little snarl. Took a typing break to put him in time out.Definitely no miracle cure yet!

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest BiggiesOwner

I'm probably going to jinx myself writing this - but we're officially at 2 weeks of using the new method for Biggie's snarling in bed so I figured an update is due. (I'm hoping to look back on these updates a year from now and see the progress Biggie has made.)

 

We are on 3 days in a row without a snarling from bed from Biggie. So YAY! This is with me purposely trying to test him a multiple times a day (clanking glasses, waving arms, having my intrepid volunteers sit down on the couch next to his bed while he is asleep, odd noises etc). The most Biggie is reacting to previous triggers now is maybe raising his head and giving us the "how dare you disturb my slumber" look - but even that seems to be on the decrease - mostly he just opens his eyes and doesn't bother to lift his head.

 

The last few times he did growl/snarl at us though we didn't even need to use the leash to put him in his crate - just a verbal "go to bed" and he moped to the crate on his own.

 

I'm still on alert and keeping the leash near me for the inevitable little regressions (or if we watch Frozen again - Biggie hated that Snow Monster noise) - but I can definitely say we are seeing a ton of progress.

 

And here's a completely gratuitous picture of Biggie combining drinking water AND relaxing simultaneously - he truly is a maestro of laziness.

 

10245562_10101685702355839_4339371604630

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Guest LazyBlaze

:yay That's a very promising update BiggiesOwner! So pleased that things are getting a bit easier for you.

 

Since reading your thread we have been trying to be a little more consistent with Blaze's growling if he is beside us on the couch (i.e. using the 'off' command if he gets snarly but trying to positively reinforce little things like movements and shadows in his peripheral vision that might freak him out). It is very early days but I think we can see some signs of improvement. Last night no growls at all but, like you, must not speak too soon...

 

Anyway, go Biggie! And well done (and thanks from us) to you and the trainer for working him out.

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The last few times he did growl/snarl at us though we didn't even need to use the leash to put him in his crate - just a verbal "go to bed" and he moped to the crate on his own.

 

 

 

And here's a completely gratuitous picture of Biggie combining drinking water AND relaxing simultaneously - he truly is a maestro of laziness.

 

10245562_10101685702355839_4339371604630

This made me laugh...I can just hear Biggie saying "I'll get my coat" :hehe and it really isn't hygienic to drink your own bathwater...glad to hear that he is improving, my girl Sadi had quite severe space aggression issues, I really miss not being growled at now.

<p>"One day I hope to be the person my dog thinks I am"Sadi's Pet Pages Sadi's Greyhound Data PageMulder1/9/95-21/3/04 Scully1/9/95-16/2/05Sadi 7/4/99 - 23/6/13 CroftviewRGT

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Guest sireltonsmom

I'm glad to see you are putting the effort in to help him get comfortable. He sounds like a wonderful dog. I loved the picture and hate to offer a caution but Giardia lurks in standing water and I'd just offer that information to you. He has wonderful earsies!

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Guest BiggiesOwner

Thank you for the heads up SirEltonsMom - I usually try to keep him from drinking the water after it rains but he bobbed his head down just as I snapped the picture. That was the first time he discovered wallowing in puddles at the dog park- I think he might be a pig/greyhound combo - he didn't want to leave his puddle!

 

His amazing ears are a big reason we picked him - they're a personality unto themselves :bunny

Edited by BiggiesOwner
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  • 3 weeks later...
Guest Jesse12789

wow great improvement.... quick question has the snarling behavior been going on since you have had him or did it start after having him for awhile?

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Guest BiggiesOwner

Hi Jesse12789,

 

The snarling started around the 4 month mark of us having Biggie. I don't know if it is related or not - but we did get him a really sweet new bed around that time and I think possibly the "thrill" of his new bed made Biggie a bit power mad. Once he got in that bed he just really didn't want anyone disturbing his precious slumber in his super awesome bed. Maybe it is related, maybe it isn't - but that was the only change that we could figure out around that time.

 

In further news - still no growling!!

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