Osteo Thread V

[Charlies_Dad]

It's time to start another thread as we come near to 50 pages on the previous thread. My Charlie was part of the first group who was part of this thread and after fighting for 21 months he is now gone. I truly wish all those who's pups suffering from this disease live a long and quality life and surpass Charlie, Joe, Winston and Morgan, all 'long-term' survivors of this horrid disease. My only message to those who pups have been diagnosed and those to come, hold tight as this is a battle no matter the path you choose. Your pup will always love you and you know what's best for your pup. May one day this thread not be needed and this disease be a thing to not fear.

 

Below is information to help you make choices for yourself and your family, originally posted and collected by NeylasMom.

 

This is the fifth in a series of threads. The original was started by a few people whose pups were diagnosed around the same time in July of 2010, but it appears it has grown into an ongoing thread that will provide both information and emotional support for anyone who has dealt with losing a pup to osteo, is currently caring for a pup diagnosed with osteo, has one that has been newly diagnosed, or worries they may have to deal with it in the future. You do not have to have a pup that currently has osteo to join in this thread - feel free to stop by if you've ever lost a pup to osteo or other cancer, would like to offer support to those currently dealing with this disease, would like to prepare yourself for the possibility of dealing with this, or if your pup has been diagnosed recently. We've even had a person or two join in whose pups were diagnosed with other forms of cancer. Basically, anyone is welcome although we'd prefer there be no reason to have to welcome anyone or for this thread to exist at all.

 

For those who have recently had a pup diagnosed with osteo, here is some information to hopefully get you started:

 

Bone Cancer Dogs site - An excellent place to start to get general information about osteo, treatment options, etc.

Journal article on pain mgt - Technically an article on using radiation for palliative (pain management) care, but includes a good overview of the

types of bone cancer pain and the various ways to treat it including medications, radiation, and IV pamidronate

Dog Cancer Blog - Blog from Dr. Dressler, a vet who has dedicated himself to cancer treatment in dogs - includes lots of useful information via blog posts, as well as a link

to purchase his book (which covers all aspects of cancer care, both holistic and traditional) in a downloadable format.

 

The previous osteo threads, the original and part II, with over 100 pages of useful information and support. This is a good place to get specifics if you are wondering about a specific holistic regimen one of us used, the decision making process for choosing amputation or palliative care, etc.

 

For inspiration and some laughs: Winslow's diary

 

For those considering amputation, BigOrangeDog's blog about what to expect.

 

Yahoo groups where you can go for information and support:

 

Dog Bone Cancer Group - not greyhound specific, but a good source of information and support specific to osteosarcoma

Circle of Grey - a greyhound specific support group for owners of pups dealing with all kinds of health issues

Artemisinin and Cancer - for those who would like to pursue artemisinin as part of their treatment regimen, neither greyhound nor osteo specific

 

For those interesting in contacting OSU for a consult, second opinion, appointment, or amputation:

 

Greyhound Health and Wellness Program

Ohio State University College of Veterinary Medicine

601 Vernon Tharp Street

Columbus, Ohio 43210

Phone: (614) 247-6757 or (614) 247-8490

Email: greyosu@osu.edu

Website: http://www.vet.ohio-state.edu/GHWP.htm (registration and fee now required to get full access to this site)

 

For a consultation, you must use the online consultation service found here. Do NOT contact Dr. Couto directly or you will not receive a timely response.

 

The consult is free but if you can afford to support the program please do so. You can sign up for full access to the website ($99 per calendar year) or donate through the giving page on the website. If you decide to donate, you can double your money by giving through the Greyhound Project. They will match the funds that you donate. Just go to this website and scroll down to the appropriate donation button: http://www.adopt-a-g...g/donate.shtml.

 

Keep in mind that OSU does 20 to 30 greyhound consults a day along with all of their "in canine" patients. Depending on their workload there may be a wait for the consultation. If you are contacting them on an emergency basis, please let them know.

 

If you want to make an appointment to be seen in person/canine, you can call the main number to set up a date/time. The main number for the veterinary hospital is 614-292-3551. This information is also on the consultation service page.

 

If you decide to visit OSU please contact Jane (joejoesmom). She may be able to put you up in a local home, provide moral support, or just help with logistics: Finewhipador-drool@yahoo.com[/i]

 

If you wish to help further osteosarcoma research, 2 labs that are collecting samples and have specifically requested greyhound samples:

 

Modiano Lab - Need tissue from a biopsy and blood; will send a collection kit and a prepaid return mailer; also accepting samples for hemangiosarcoma and lyphoma

Website: http://www.modianola...nfo_index.shtml

Contact person: Mitzi, 612-626-6890, lewel001@umn.edu

 

Broad Institute - Blood samples only, may be able to help with shipping costs, but they prefer you cover them

Website: http://www.broadinst...sending-samples

Contact info: dog-info@broadinstitute.org, FAX: (617) 324-2722

 

Both labs require signed consent forms and samples must be shipped overnight.

[NeylasMom]

Thanks for starting the new thread Kyle.

 

Might as well use up our last 3 pages It seems as if things on this thread have calmed down a little lately which is a nice change adter the rough patch everyone had.

I don't post too much as nothign to exciting to report with FedX. He will have a consult at Angell on the 29th jsut so we are all set up in case I want to do any more pamidronate treatments for him. It will be interesting to get thier input/view.

FedX is now 16.5 months post diagnosis and still going with a smile He's my little energizer greyhound

16.5 months is amazing! I think you have certainly set a GT record for palliative care.

Edited May 19, 2012 by NeylasMom

[krissn333]

Thanks for the new thread, Kyle!

 

And GO FedX!

[Guest RICHandJUDE]

Thank you again for starting this new tread. Little do you know how inspirational you and Charlie have been to my family. We were listed in one of the first (recent) threads concerning Osteo. We followed your story all along. My SANTA was diagnosed with Osteo in September of 2010. He had his amputation in September and had 6 chemo treatments. He is doing fantastic so far. Every three months we have his chest and lungs x-rayed. So far, so good. We realize that the odds are still against him but we 'take one day at at time'.

[Charlies_Dad]

Thank you again for starting this new tread. Little do you know how inspirational you and Charlie have been to my family. We were listed in one of the first (recent) threads concerning Osteo. We followed your story all along. My SANTA was diagnosed with Osteo in September of 2010. He had his amputation in September and had 6 chemo treatments. He is doing fantastic so far. Every three months we have his chest and lungs x-rayed. So far, so good. We realize that the odds are still against him but we 'take one day at at time'.

 

This makes me so happy. I am glad Santa is doing so well and may he keep doing well for a long long time.

 

So I read a very disturbing article for me from someone whom I had respected and now just don't know. It's specific to Osteosarcoma and it basically stated that one should put their pup to sleep upon diagnosis as there are no options. The specific statements were, "Rimadyl and Tramadol are our terminal disease drugs" and that amputation and chemo are essentially worthless options as its puts the dog through so much for so little. This individual to me is misinformed and ignorant. Most pups get through amp and chemo with very few issues and if one can afford it and the pup is a good candidate, then it is a great option to provide on average 12-14mths of extra time that for a pup is a long time. Unfortunately some pups don't get that much time and I know that is heartbreaking as it would be so much easier to know if you have a 'guaranteed' 12 mths if one pursues 'X' treatment but alas this disease does not play fair. I know my Charlie blossomed even more on three legs and loved life to it's fullest right up until the end. I know his last few days he did not understand why he could not run full out as he could not inflate his lungs to get a good breath, he didn't understand all that but I think he knew he was happy all the way up until the end and that for me is saying something about pursuing all options if possible.

[krissn333]

I agree, Kyle. Pinky too has really blossomed since her amp and has really become herself instead of being Ace's shadow all the time. She is an awesome dog and I believe this was the right choice for her

 

Beyond that, how dare someone criticize a very personal choice like this anyway?

[Batmom]

So I read a very disturbing article for me from someone whom I had respected and now just don't know. It's specific to Osteosarcoma and it basically stated that one should put their pup to sleep upon diagnosis as there are no options.

 

It's perhaps ignorant to state there are no options. Letting the dog go @ diagnosis is an option and in some cases arguably the best one.

 

The specific statements were, "Rimadyl and Tramadol are our terminal disease drugs"

 

Those drugs are used in many non-terminal illnesses.

 

and that amputation and chemo are essentially worthless options as its puts the dog through so much for so little. This individual to me is misinformed and ignorant.

 

I don't believe that is misinformed and ignorant. It's a matter of opinion. Amputation and chemo for cancer are not something I would do.

 

Most pups get through amp and chemo with very few issues and if one can afford it and the pup is a good candidate, then it is a great option to provide on average 12-14mths of extra time that for a pup is a long time.

 

I don't think it is fair to say that *most* pups get through those things with very few issues. Infections, diarrhea, inappetence, pain -- those are not "very few issues" and they occur pretty regularly. I also believe that 12-14 months is high for the average. For those pups who do get 12-14 months, in many cases a large portion of that time is of poor quality.

 

I think it's great when a dog does well with amputation and chemotherapy but I would never criticize someone for euthanizing their dog at or soon after diagnosis. That is a great kindness and speaks of concern for the dog.

[Charlies_Dad]

 

I don't believe that is misinformed and ignorant. It's a matter of opinion. Amputation and chemo for cancer are not something I would do.

 

I don't think it is fair to say that *most* pups get through those things with very few issues. Infections, diarrhea, inappetence, pain -- those are not "very few issues" and they occur pretty regularly. I also believe that 12-14 months is high for the average. For those pups who do get 12-14 months, in many cases a large portion of that time is of poor quality.

 

I think it's great when a dog does well with amputation and chemotherapy but I would never criticize someone for euthanizing their dog at or soon after diagnosis. That is a great kindness and speaks of concern for the dog.

 

I do believe it is misinformed and ignorant as there are options. Euthanasia is one option, palliative care (multiple types), amputation and chemo are all options. The article I read basically stated that the latter are useless which is not true. All options should be considered and it's up to the pup's owner to make the best for their pup.

 

As for pups doing fairly well after amp and chemo, define your definition of 'well'? I base my knowledge on what has been published by OSU and diarrhea and inappetence I don't consider to be terrible things if one can get control of these. Infection I agree needs to be addressed ASAP and as for pain, removal of the limb normally removes pain, that is why it's done. Phantom pain I know can be an issue and a bad one for some pups.

 

The average time a pup gets after amp & chemo again I base on OSU publications and some others from Colorado State and considering they see so many more Greys than most, then 12-14 average I do not believe is incorrect. Again it's an average and an average means unfortunately some pups will not make that. My question to you would be what do you know or have that points to this is high and that, "in many cases a large portion of that time is of poor quality."? I ask this because if we continue to adopt Greys, we know Osteo is a very likely possibility and we can't always go the amp & chemo route. We wish to be fully informed and if OSU and Colorado State publications are skewed for whatever reasons, then we would like to know.

 

I don't criticize anyone for the decision they make for their dogs. You are definitely reading too much into what I wrote and I never ever stated that.

[robinw]

With all due respect, Kyle, I think it's a personal decision. I sent Phene to the bridge one week after he was diagnosed, just after he first painful episode. I never even increased his meds. It was not a decision I made out of ignorance. I think it was a decision I made out of compassion. Not everybody wants to take the amp route. In my situation, I thought extending his life would be a selfish decision, knowing that his pain would return, as would the possibility of his breaking a leg. I needed to keep him safe and out of pain, and for me letting him go seemed to be the most compassionate route. Osteo is extremely painful and almost always terminal.

 

I have full respect for those who have gone the amputation/ treatment route, but I made an informed decision based on lots of research.

Edited May 20, 2012 by robinw

[Batmom]

My question to you would be what do you know or have that points to this is high and that, "in many cases a large portion of that time is of poor quality."?

 

Direct observation of dogs I know and reports from friends, acquaintances, and certainly here: Dog won't eat, dog has vomiting and/or severe and uncomfortable diarrhea, dog is limping and/or crying out at times, dog has secondary infection, dog now has lung mets and is having some breathing difficulties, dog is frequently restless and can't settle, dog is crabby when others approach, dog has no interest in previously enjoyed activities, dog cannot rise from lying down position by him/herself, dog has uncomfortable symptoms of kidney and/or cardiac damage from chemotherapy or metastases ....

 

Those are not signs of a high quality of life. When those things can be considered transitory -- reasonable period of recovery from amputation, a day post-chemo, etc. -- that's great. When they are unremitting, it is a miserable thing to watch and to wait for the owner to realize that their beloved pet is suffering.

 

Again, it is always good -- no, wonderful -- to hear that a dog *is* doing well but it is not the case in my experience that *most* dogs do well; rather the opposite.

 

OSU gives a variety of statistics about survival times. Most of their statistics seem to be in terms of median rather than average (median means half are below and half are above), and their own most frequent observation seems to be a predicted @ 8-12 months for greyhounds with amputation and chemo.

 

We tend to think of medians and averages as meaning that "most individuals will fall at or near that range." You know and I know that statistics aren't like that. Medians and averages can reflect a cluster around the median or average, a very wide spread with a few individuals at each end (low and high), or anything in between.

 

I don't think it is incumbent on an owner to consider all options when the odds are poor and the stakes -- the pet's pain and suffering -- are so very high. Or rather, an individual pet owner may consider all options and decide to euthanize before there is any significant sign of pain. I don't think that is an ignorant choice at all.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Batmom

[greysmom]

It's such a personal choice.

 

One can think about and plan for the future, do all the research, and talk about the options. Then all that goes out the window when your faced wth a dog standing in your yard with a broken leg and you *know* he has osteosarcoma before you even get to the vet. If you had asked me eighteen months ago I would have told you we would "never" spend $15,000 on one dog to get nine months of time. I would have told you we would "never" put a dog through an amputation, recovery from major surgery, chemo, and all the attendant problems. I would have told you my husband and I had talked extensively and decided what we would do if one of our dogs was diagnosed with cancer.

 

And what we actually DID do was exactly the opposite of everything we sad we WOULD do. And I now know we really can't say what we will do in the future. Each time and each dog and each situation is different, and you can only decide when you're faced with a decision. Statistics and research and averages and medians can only give you so much information. Each incidence has to take all of this into account, plus the personality of the dog, plus the ability of the owners to provide treatment both financially and physically. We now have a much better idea of what the dog goes through and what we have to do and experience as the caregivers.

 

Yes, there are definitely quality of life issues that need to be taken into account. In our experience, most of the "bad" reactions were transitory. Or at least of no longer duration than similar reactions (diarrhea, inappetance, pain) that non-osteo dogs can experience for less life-threatening medical issues. I do know that if Dude's quality of life had gone downhill at any time during his treatment, with no hope of recovery, we would not have hesitated to make the decision to end his suffering.

[BauersMom]

With all due respect, Kyle, I think it's a personal decision. I sent Phene to the bridge one week after he was diagnosed, just after he first painful episode. I never even increased his meds. It was not a decision I made out of ignorance. I think it was a decision I made out of compassion. Not everybody wants to take the amp route. In my situation, I thought extending his life would be a selfish decision, knowing that his pain would return, as would the possibility of his breaking a leg. I needed to keep him safe and out of pain, and for me letting him go seemed to be the most compassionate route. Osteo is extremely painful and almost always terminal.

 

I have full respect for those who have gone the amputation/ treatment route, but I made an informed decision based on lots of research.

 

I think you misunderstood Kyle's point. He's not saying that opting for euthanasia at the time of diagnosis is ignorant, he's saying that the author of the article saying "there are no options other than euthanasia" is ignorant.

[BauersMom]

 

 

Yes, there are definitely quality of life issues that need to be taken into account. In our experience, most of the "bad" reactions were transitory. Or at least of no longer duration than similar reactions (diarrhea, inappetance, pain) that non-osteo dogs can experience for less life-threatening medical issues. I do know that if Dude's quality of life had gone downhill at any time during his treatment, with no hope of recovery, we would not have hesitated to make the decision to end his suffering.

 

I think most people who are facing the osteo decisions are right there with you. Most of the bad reactions I've seen or experienced first hand were transitory, and if I had thought Berkeley was suffering in any way, I could not have hesitated to make the decision.

 

Perhaps a small percentage of folks let it go too long, but that isn't an osteo-specific scenario.

[krissn333]

I think I would say that at least 80-90% of the osteo dogs here who had amp and chemo have come out of it with very little issues, and those have all been transitory issues that a 4-legged dog could also have.

 

The worst Pinky went through with all of this was having to be in a kennel the day of her surgery. She's had ZERO of the things listed-diarrhea, inappetence, pain, infections. ZERO.

 

Kyle's point was that it is ignorant for the author to say that immediate euthanasia is the only option. In some cases, it is (ie, if the dog broke the leg and the owner is not considering amputation), but in a vast majority of cases, there are a variety of options. Sutra made it 6 months with palliative care and 99% of those days were good days. I don't regret my decisions with him either.

[Charlies_Dad]

With all due respect, Kyle, I think it's a personal decision. I sent Phene to the bridge one week after he was diagnosed, just after he first painful episode. I never even increased his meds. It was not a decision I made out of ignorance. I think it was a decision I made out of compassion. Not everybody wants to take the amp route. In my situation, I thought extending his life would be a selfish decision, knowing that his pain would return, as would the possibility of his breaking a leg. I needed to keep him safe and out of pain, and for me letting him go seemed to be the most compassionate route. Osteo is extremely painful and almost always terminal.

 

I have full respect for those who have gone the amputation/ treatment route, but I made an informed decision based on lots of research.

 

I think you misunderstood Kyle's point. He's not saying that opting for euthanasia at the time of diagnosis is ignorant, he's saying that the author of the article saying "there are no options other than euthanasia" is ignorant.

 

That is what I meant exactly, thank you. I should have placed more context on the publication and that it was specifically from the leader of a large adoption group who as I stated I have respected in the past.

 

I have never and will never call a person into question on their decision no matter what it is. It is a completely personal decision. I believe you know this Robin and I know you did what was right for Phene.

[Batmom]

But the author doesn't say the only option is euthanasia. The article is here: http://www.ngap.org/greyhound-health-limping-osteo-y448.html

[BauersMom]

I can certainly see Kyle's point and the one-sided issue in that article. It is a personal opinion piece, and not worth much in the way of helpful information. [How many NGAP adopters with limping dogs and clear x-rays did the author totally freak out?]

 

The reality is a personal decision, period. If you think it is wrong for you and your dog, then don't do the amp. If you do, then do it. I will not chastise anyone for making either decision, and I am not going to debate over what is "right" for anyone else. I think everyone in this thread feels the same.

 

But I will say one last thing and then I'm out of this discussion... while I find most of the article to be lacking, this sentence is just downright silly:

 

"Our vet prescribed Rimadyl and Tramadol, two drugs that always spell ‘terminal’ to me because that’s what we use on almost all of our terminal dogs."

[Batmom]

How many people would argue with this part of the article, I wonder? "No one should have a guilty conscience putting their dog to sleep before it is in excruciating pain."

[45MPHK9]

How many people would argue with this part of the article, I wonder? "No one should have a guilty conscience putting their dog to sleep before it is in excruciating pain."

 

Funny you should single out that sentence, Batmom. That was the one sentence that really resonated with me.

[krissn333]

I don't think that any of us here would disagree with that statement...however, the overall tone of that statement suggests that if one does not put their dog to sleep upon diagnosis, that they are condemning their dog to excruciating pain, which is simply NOT the case.

 

And the Rimadyl/tramadol statement is simply ludicrous.

[robinw]

I don't think that any of us here would disagree with that statement...however, the overall tone of that statement suggests that if one does not put their dog to sleep upon diagnosis, that they are condemning their dog to excruciating pain, which is simply NOT the case.

Well, my reasoning for sending Phene to the bridge when I did was because I knew that I never, ever wanted him to get to the point that he would face excruciating pain. I couldn't chance it. When I took him to the vet that last time, she said that she could absolutely guarantee and promise that he was experiencing much more pain than he let on, and that excruciating pain was inevitable. In fact, i think he was already there. In my mind, once he reached the point that the minimal pain control meds weren't working, he had already reached that point. One episode was enough. I feel that any dog who is diagnosed with osteo will face excruciating pain. It goes with the disease.

 

I tried to become active in the osteo thread here, but always felt judged that I might not have done enough for my dog. I disagree. I think I gave him the greatest gift of all.

 

I am not judging anybody who took the amp/ treatment route. We all make our decisions out of love. We just face different truths.

[45MPHK9]

Not everybody wants to take the amp route. In my situation, I thought extending his life would be a selfish decision, knowing that his pain would return, as would the possibility of his breaking a leg. I needed to keep him safe and out of pain, and for me letting him go seemed to be the most compassionate route. Osteo is extremely painful and almost always terminal.

 

I have full respect for those who have gone the amputation/ treatment route, but I made an informed decision based on lots of research.

 

Robin, Burke and I wanted you to know that we could have written these very words about Bee Wiseman and the choices we made in treating her osteo.

 

Hoping we will see the day when this disease is eradicated. It's a miserable road, no matter the path you choose.

 

[RileysLegacy]

Not everybody wants to take the amp route. In my situation, I thought extending his life would be a selfish decision, knowing that his pain would return, as would the possibility of his breaking a leg. I needed to keep him safe and out of pain, and for me letting him go seemed to be the most compassionate route. Osteo is extremely painful and almost always terminal.

 

I have full respect for those who have gone the amputation/ treatment route, but I made an informed decision based on lots of research.

 

Robin, Burke and I wanted you to know that we could have written these very words about Bee Wiseman and the choices we made in treating her osteo.

 

Hoping we will see the day when this disease is eradicated. It's a miserable road, no matter the path you choose.

The same goes for me. I stay out of osteo threads for the most part because it seems I am one of the few who made the decision very early. Riley was still eating, still mobile, still mostly himself, although he was definitely in some pain and his xrays were horrific. I knew sooner rather than later he would be in severe pain, if he was lucky enough not to shatter the leg. So I made the choice before adding tons of pain meds, or any other treatment. He had a terminal disease, he was NEVER getting better. I admit that I have felt some guilt about this, especially when reading about other pups w/osteo on GT, but in my heart I know I did the right thing for him. His last day on earth was full of fast food, long slow walks on the beach, cuddles with his brothers & I, and finally a visit from my trusted vet where he got to lay on his favorite bed and drift off peacefully, never knowing true pain and suffering. Yes, he probably could have had a few more days, weeks, or maybe even a month or two, but I couldn't take that risk. In my heart I know I gave him a gift, and the same is true for Phene & Bee.

Edited May 20, 2012 by RileysLegacy

[Charlies_Dad]

This topic has gone way off the essence of what it stands for. It can either get back on track or I'll request to close it.

 

I personally have never judged anyone here or anywhere on GT for what they think is best for their pup. This thread is provide support and provide hopefully helpful advice to those who pups have been diagnosed NO MATTER the choice their owner makes for them. I apologize to those using the thread for that purpose for posting a comment that obviously some individuals have blown totally out of proportion and has deviated the discussion from what it should be doing.

[krissn333]

Agree with Kyle 100%.

 

Robin, I never would have judged you for your choices with Phene. EVERY case is unique. Time of diagnosis is always different. Progression of the disease at time of diagnosis is always different. How FAST the tumor eats at the bone is different in every case.

 

I will never judge anyone for letting their dog go early if they're not amputating. There is a lot of pain involved, especially of the tumor is rapidly growing. But I also ask the same that no one judge me for the choices I have made with my dogs. Pinky's tumor was caught so early that it hadn't even eaten the bone yet, it had only invaded the marrow cavity. In my mind, the only option for her case was to amputate and do chemo. Choosing palliative care would have only ensured that one day she would be in excruciating pain.

 

No one here is judging. This is a place for support, and if you haven't PERSONALLY been through it yourself, you have NO IDEA what it's like to have a choice like this. I'm a two-dog member of this osteo group...I've had to make this choice twice. Each choice has been different, specific to the dog. And I made the right choice in both cases...know why? Because they were MY choices. Anyone who dares to tell me I've made the wrong choices and that I'm condemning my dogs to excruciating pain is simply an idiot.