I've seen the BARF diet mentioned in several posts. Could someone describe what it's all about? Why does it seem controversial? I don't want to open a can of worms here - I'm just looking for information. TIA.

crazy canuck

Barf is basically a natural diet of raw meats and vegetables
Here is a link to Cindy's website describing what she feeds
and links to other sites and references to books about feeding raw barf

AAck! Sorry....I found the webpage describing the BARF diet (Cindy and Thunder). Good things come to those who sit and surf!

crazy canuck

I read the BARF site, and was shocked to find out that they put flea collars in kibble! YUCK! Why in the world would they do that?

Cindy-

This looks easier than I thought it would be. How much does this cost you per week? (I am a vegetarian so I have no idea about the cost of meat). Thanks.

If you can find a meat distributor or a butcher near you to get really low prices it can be a very cost effective way to feed. I have yet to find either, but the grocery stores around me all sell a variety of meats for under $1/lb. I use chicken necks and backs as the main staple...they are .49/lb.

Long story short...you feed around 3% body weight...give or take depending on your dog. My girl is 70ish...so she gets around 2lbs per day. I probably spend $10 per week feeding her.

Not everyone believes that it's wise to feed our dogs raw meat, bones and poultry. Here's one link, but there are many others in opposition to raw diets. Do your research and make an informed decision.
Against BARF

Though what one also has to keep in mind...most 'nutritional studies' are funded by pet food companies b.c. they are the ones with the money to do them, and most vets only get a 2-3 week course on animal nutrition.

I say read everything you can find for and against the diet. There are also a multitude of discussion boards out there with many people willing to help and answer questions.

The link posted by GHLady has quotes from a vet that works for Iams. Of course they are going to be against BARF, they are trying to sell their product. As far as the splintering bones, most likely those were *cooked* bones, not raw. You should never feed a dog cooked bones. Also, just as we humans do not eat a 100% balanced meal "every single day," it's unrealistic to think that dogs have to eat that way.

However, my opinion is the same as GHLady's...don't rely on one source to help you make your decision. Do your research, talk with your vet and a holistic vet. I have successfully fed Gracie a BARF diet but I also feed her a variety of high quality kibble (Solid Gold, Canidae, California Natural, Innova). Do your research and do what's best for you.

Sue

No surprise here - I'm a BARF advocate. But I must say that you should not just "Feed the dog a bone" -- in order to do the diet correctly, please read as much as you can on natural, home prepared meal plans.

1. Give Your Dog a Bone -- Ian Billinghurst, DVM
2. Grow your Pup With Bones -- Ian Billinghurst, DVM
3. The Ultimate Diet -- Kymythy Schultz
4. Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs and Cats -- Richard H. Pitcairn, Susan Hubble Pitcairn
5. The Nature of Animal Healing : The Definitive Holistic Medicine Guide to Caring for Your Dog and Cat -- Martin Goldstein D.V.M.
6. Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog -- Wendy Volhard, Kerry L. Brown

Search on the internet for information (both pros and cons) to this way of feeding.

Its not without risk. Yes, a dog could get salmonella or e-coli from raw meat. THey could also get it from licking their anus or eating poop. The dog's digestive tract is very short and the digestive enzymes are very strong. Things that woudl kill a human don't even phase a dog.

I buy my meats from a wholesaler -- $.29 / lb for chicken backs/necks. This is teh staple here.

Thunder eats about 1.5 lbs of raw meaty bones per day. He also gets a few "meatballs" - ground beef mixed with ground veggies and his supplements. (glucosomine+chondroiton; vit c; CoQ10; Vit E; EFA).

I also give him chicken livers and other offal 3x per week.

I've been feeding this way for 2.5 years with nothing but success. I know people who have been feeding this way for 20 years with success.

Again, its not without risk. You have to weigh the risks vs. the benefits and for me, the benefits outweigh the potential risks. Thunder's been fine; I've been fine.

I spend about 1 hour and $7 per week to get Thunder's food for the week ready.

In the early days it was more because I weighed all the meats and really took my time. Now, its easy breezy - takes no time at all

A raw diet is not for everyone. If you're interested in a home prepared diet but not raw, try the Pitcairn recipes. They are cooked and come highly recommended. Volhard and Pitcairn are cooked diets. They also offer things to add to kibble to make it more nutritious.

I hope this helps some!

Cindy

The dog's digestive tract is very short and the digestive enzymes are very strong. Things that woudl kill a human don't even phase a dog.

This could be why I was home sick with food poisoning yesterday and Jet was fine!

As for the BARF diet... read read read read talk talk read some more. Do a lot of reasearch (both pro and con) and decide what is best for you.

I am ambivalent about the subject. But I have come across a number of articles, both pro & con. Here is a pretty good synopsis of the debate, with good reference and support for either side. I submit it for your consideration:

To BARF or not to BARF...

I found the bulk of the article to be cons and would encourage people to read the following as well (for a more "pro" point of view)

BARF "How To" and Pictoral

Barf FAQs

Another BARF FAQ

More Info on BARF

Dr Ian Billinghurst's Page

Dr. Tom Lonsdale's RMB Page

Just Food For Thouhgt (pardon the pun)

Cindy

Well I can't possibly read all of those links. I'm a 'after work' GTalker and there isn't enough time tonight, maybe this wkend......between lawn mowing, laundry, dog walkiing.....
This is what I feed my dogs and they seem to do well and love me for my efforts.
I feed Natural Balance and alternate with supplements such as veggie slop, turkey necks, eggs and jack mackerel.
Veggie Slop is steamed and blended broccoli, cabbage, kale, spinach, yams, turnips, carrots, gr beans, artichoke hearts, and whatever else I find that week in the produce aisle.
Every morning- just plain kibble with a little warm water
Evenings- I alternate
Eve 1- kibble with 1/2 can each of jack mackerel and a scoop of Veggie Slop
Eve 2- one turkey neck each and then kibble with Veggie Slop and egg (nuked to kill the baddies)
twice a week- I might slip in a little a bit of 1/2 cooked hamburger
They get a slice of hot dog each night as a treat and a Derm-cap delivery system. Kiowa gets Missing Link right now in his kibble.
I will read all of the articles as soon as I have time. But I think I'm feeding my kids very well and they are happy and healthy. Poops are fine, skin and coat are fine, and best of all they love me to pieces all of the time and especially at dinner time.
BTW my vet sells SD and when I told him what I was feeding (and what I thought of SD) he said my boys were spoiled but in a nice way. He can't say much about SD because that would be tattling. We also have an Alpo/Friskies/Purina plant here in town so his tongue is truly tied.

For anyone else reading, contemplating a raw diet, I very strongly urge you to read not only the links provided in this post but the books mentioned as well.

The BARF diet done wrong can mean disaster. Done correctly, it can provide a way to provide wonderful, nutritious, healthy, whole foods to your pet.

Don't take my word for it, thought --- read read read!!!

Here's an excellent link to an article written by a raw feeder of nearly 20 years. Natural Diet -- DON'T Just Do It

Very interesting, Cindy. You always have tons of excellent information at your fingertips.

*SIGH* Just what I needed (not) to be given MORE things to read. And when everything I read (and read and read and read) seems to contradict something else I read......ARGH! I think I'm feeding my kids well though their diet might need a little fine tuning. If someone has an OPINION on what I'm feeding, I would like to know what specific thing you think I'm doing wrong. Too much of one thing, not enough of something else?? Just when I was starting to feel really good about the way I feed my dogs, tonight after reading these posts I feel totally lame and stupid.

Shelia -

try posting to Naturally Grey -- its a bulletin board for people looking to go with a home prepared (raw) diet.

There are lots and lots of very knowledgable people there who can help you fine tune what you're doing. Lots and lots of experience ...........

Cindy

Couldn't the same be said for Human animals - that we originally ate all raw foods - Native Americans ate the heart of a newly killed animal - No thanks! Fads like these can be dangerous. Ask a vet who has done surgery on a perforated or obstructed bowel because a dog ate bones! Raw bones are brittle too - if they were soft, the animal couldn't stand up! Please check with your Vet before trying any fad diets.

Why do I feel like the constructive discussion we were having just flew out the window??


First, your statement about Native Americans eating the heart of a newly killed animal is *NOT* what the Native Americans ate on a dialy baisis. It was NOT the bulk of their diet and you've taken it out of context. Many human cultures (including the American culture) eat rare meat on a regular basis.

Some people do eat an evolutionary diet -- vegetables, fruits, nuts and seeds. Meat, by many, is NOT considered part of the human evolutionary diet.

Second, raw bones are NOT brittle -- I can break them with my bare hands! Chicken necks are very flexible and soft. The bones break easily. The raw diet proponents advise NOT to feed leg bones, for example. They are harder than neck bones. However, have you ever seen a dog eat a bone? Thunder happily crunches through (and completely digests) a chicken back or neck (and yes, I've fed legs, too).

Third, the "BARF diet" is not a fad. I see KIBBLE as the fad. Kibble has existed for less than 100 years. The Canine for tens of 1000's. What did dogs eat before kibble? What do wolves (who are nearly identical, genetically to our modern house dogs) eat? Our dogs evolved eating raw meat and bones (and stomach contents, random fallen fruits, vegetation, dung of other animals, dead, rotting carcases, etc...)

Your warning seems extreme and alarmist. Yes people should talk with their vets but just because its different than what you feed doesn't mean its bad or wrong.

I've tried to provide useful information that people can sift through to make their own decision based on their comfort level. I may never change your mind but please provide real information rather than random warnings.

Sigh.

I haven't yet had a chance to do much research on the BARF diet although I am very intereseted in putting Shadow (& possibly Mandy) on it due to his food allergies. He still has a ways to go before I can change his diet again - he is not compeltely back to normal yet. Once my project deadline at work has past, the end of this month, I will have some spare time again and will start reading.
I have a question though. Both Mandy and Shadow tend to gulp down their food and I know it will make me very nervous to give either of them a raw bone. I'm afraid they will try to gulp them down without crunching and chewing them completely. Does/or did Thunder do this? And if so, what was your solution? Or if you have any suggestions?

The first several days, I'd hold a wing by one end and let Thunder chew with the other.

They really just chew enough to swallow. Its not rare to have THunder chew 2x and swallow (if its small) For large RMBs (raw meaty bones) like backs, I let him chew to his hearts content on a towel on the floor or outside.

Cindy

Sorry, I just got a visual of me trying to get each dog to lay with a towel in front of them to gnaw on their bone. With three dogs, each chasing mom who is holding a yummy bones....Well that's not gonna' happen. I boot all three of them outside now and let each go to their favorite corner of the yard and supervise to make sure they behave.
I'm not sure if I'm ready to do a whole raw diet yet. The premium kibble (Natural Balance) and the veggie slop is the base of their meal. Not perfect, but still pretty darn good IMO. Then I supplement with turkey necks, fish, and eggs and for Kiowa- Missing Link.
Kiowas balding butt is getting hair and he is filling out (he's always been a little on the too skinny side) X had terrible dandruff when I got him and he is now flake-free. Katy is over 9yrs old and bounces like a puppy still, noboby believes me when I say she is a senior.
As far as bones....I feel comfortable with the raw beef knuckle bones (which don't splinter BTW) and the marrow bones (only the big ones that they can't swallow whole) These are always given with supervision. Turkey necks have more cartilege than bone and feel safe. I'm still not sure about chicken backs/legs. Yrs of conditioning about them being splintery has me spooked.
Thanks Cindy for the link I may give that a try too.

E.coli in 4D meat has caused Alabama Rot in Greyhounds. It is the same E. coli that causes illness and death in people.

Which is why we feed human grade meats you can buy in a grocery...not dead, dying, diseased, and down meat.

Some animals, due to illness or some other weakness, do not have as strong an immune system as others. So the risk is there...very minimal but there.

I know my grey has eaten nice and rotten roadkill before I could grab it out of her mouth, and she was fine. The meats I feed, however, are much cleaner than that though.

Actually, Fenwick et al, when they had the big conference about it, concluded only that the meat was one of the things the greys all had in common and beef is a common source of e.coli. There was no conclusive recommendation or statement that it was the cause or that the meat was detrimental to the health of the racing greyhound. I'm sure someone has a copy of the report around, if I had it handy, I'd post it

Again I say - what works for one might not work for the other. We do what we believe is best for our pets, and we all need to respect that.

Cheryl2 I think this is want you may be looking for
E. Coli

Actually, I have a BARF question. I'm not trying to cause problems, it's just something I've always wondered, so I thought I'd ask.

Most BARF feeders serve a poultry-based diet, supplemented with veggies/offal, and with ground hamburger, and other supplements. The veggies/offal makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint, because it's the type of thing that dogs originally got from the gullet of the animals they killed.

However, the poultry part really confuses me. Historically, and in the wild, isn't a dog's diet mostly rodents and/or wild hooved animals? It seems like dogs by nature would eat much more squirrel, rabbit, groundhog, moose, deer etc., than chicken, turkey, and cow.

So my question is, why don't BARF feeders serve large rodents and hooved animals to their dogs? Is it an availability issue? I know that squirrel, rabbit, venison and muskrat can be found, but they are less available than chicken and turkey, and probably more costly.

Well, that's it. I've made up my mind. It was the e.coli article that did it. Initially, I will feed whatever the rescue agency recommends to our new dog and gradually add sardines, vegetables, yogourt and COOKED meats in addition to a high quality kibble.

My decision was based on my experience with E. coli O157. Our municipal water supply was contaminated with it two years ago. In a town of 4800 people, 2300 came down with diarrhea, 7 died, 2 dozen came down with Hemolytic Uremic Syndrome and 26 children are still being followed by renal specialists. Some may need kidney transplants. Both my children were ill, DD with haemorrhagic diarrhea (thank God, it seemed to be confined to her bowel). We are currently in a 7 year study to follow individuals for changes in kidney function - the first six months of the study indicated a 400% increase in renal function abnormalities, even in people who had no symptoms of infection with E. coli O157.

E. coli O157 reappeared in five children in our town last month and the source was undercooked hamburger.

If I am scrupulous about cooking meats and using filtered, treated water for my family, how can I do less for a family pet? I wouldn't wish the symptoms of bloody diarrhea or HUS on humans or beasts - the experience was just awful and there was not a single treatment that could be given apart from intravenous hydration, not antidiarrheal medication, not painkillers, nothing.

Please pardon my emotion on this. In all good conscience, I can't tolerate the idea of giving raw meat even if it comes from a grocery store - I'm already paranoid about it regarding my own family.

Best regards, crazy canuck

Cindy, the discussion was asking for opinions of all of us about the BARF diet. I have my own opinion and have read all the data and yes, have a differing opinion than you. That is the beauty of America. My opinions are based on information from several vets and lots of reading- not random warnings. You seem upset but I gave my researched opinions. I stick by my recommendation to check with your vet before changing your pet's diet. That is just good common sense.

(sigh)

Not to cause further problems with this discussion but I agree with the "sigh".

When Shadow developed his food allergy and was very sick, we took him to our vet. She had little to no advise for us and wanted to run 'a million' tests on him despite all the symptoms pointing to food allergies. We let her test for all that we agreed could be a possibility and that was all. She had absolutely no advise for treating a food allergy other than what I had already learned which wasn't a whole lot at that time and to try an allergy formula of commercial dog food (I think it was Hills?). I refused as what she recommended was a brand of dog food that is nowhere near good quality - I would much rather cook his food.

I agree, that vets are not trained or knowledgable enough about food allergies in animals although apparently food allergies are becoming more and more common in dogs. I know of at least 4 other dogs who have developed serious food allergies as Shadow has, and their vets have been very little help to them too. Everything I have learned and do for Shadow now has been learned through talking to other people who have gone through the same thing with their dog or that I have read.

In Shadows case, because of the allergies, he will likely have to remain on home prepared food for the rest of his life. I am and continue to research for the best possible diet for him. I have heard much good about the BARF diet and many of the people I know who have dogs with food allergies have gone to this type of diet with success. In fact, a friend whos dog was very, very ill with food allergies has done remarkably well on a BARF diet. She is healthier now than she was before the food allergy symptoms appeared.

Just my opinion and from my experience.

Oops. Guess I should make sure I am registered before posting. That was my post about Shadow and food allergies...

Hi Crazy Canuck - I assume you live in or near Walkerton? I can understand your scare of e-Coli... it's not something easily forgotten.

A friend of mine had 'a bout' (for lack of a better word) with e-coli a few years ago from poorly cooked chicken (she partially cooked the chicken then turned it off when company came and continued cooking it over an hour later - then ate it for supper. Bad move.). It wasn't pretty! She was off work for many weeks.

I live just outside of Ottawa. I no longer live in the city, and our water comes from a well. We had a reverse osmosis drinking water treatment put into our house a few summers ago. We'll never again drink water from the tap or untreated water. I've heard too many horror stories about city water treatment systems.

Paranoid, maybe. But I remember...

Glad to hear your kids and yourselves are doing better and hope everyone continues to be well.

Hello Joanne! Thanks for your input. We just adopted a pretty little brindle, only 23 months old, today. She's showing a bit of dandruff and is shedding but otherwise she seems normal. I appreciate all the info I received in this thread, especially regarding allergies, since that issue was one I have not considered before. Allergies seem to be a growing problem among humans, too.

I would tend to agree with the BARF diet but I will continue to do my homework before I deviate too much from the recommendations of the adoption agency. BTW, they use Pro Plan and their dogs, especially the old ones, looked terrific!

You're right - we do live in Walkerton. May 2000 was a reality check for me regarding food and water safety. We filtre tap water to remove chlorine (it smells to high heaven with it) for use in bathing and washing food. We cook with and drink bottled water. I would estimate at least half the residents of Walkerton do the same. You just can't put a price on good health....

Best regards, crazy canuck

I'm laughing out loud ...

A lot of people do feed venison, beef, etc to the dogs as part of BARF.

Poultry may not have been the #1 meal on the plate of the canine 10,000 years ago but they likely did hunt and kill birds and wild turkeys. Maybe we're not too far off -base If I could reliably get rabbit, squirrel etc, I'd feed it in a heartbeat. I feed what I can find locally and supplement with as much variety as I can find.

Thunder eats chicken, turkey, beef, lamb and fish -- usually the first two but when I can find it, I feed lamb and fish

Not perfect but better than the alternative.

Cindy

Reminds me of a comedian I saw once doing a bit on cat food. He was poking fun at a brand of food that claimed it was food cats would naturally crave. Like tuna (how could a cat naturally crave something that came from the deep deep sea?) Chicken (maybe but it would have to be a big darn cat) But then there was Beef!! How many housecats do you know that can take down a cow?? If it was truly a food that cats naturally crave....wouldn't it have things like sparrow, mouse, and moth in it?

MMMMMMMMM..... Mmmmooooth!







So true though