Raw Feeding Basics

[Guest greyhound9797]

I have seen several messages with questions related to raw feeding and thought it might be a good idea to give those interested in it some of the basics. There are many different ways to feed it; some follow the BARF diet (Bones And Raw Food or Biologically Appropriate Raw Food) which typically contains veggies, fruits and ground meat, others a whole prey diet (feeding whole prey (rabbit, duck, chicken, quail, etc) including head, feet, fur and feathers, while others like myself feed a frankenprey diet (parts of whole animals). I believe that dogs are true carnivores, and given the fact that their genetics differ only .02% from a wolf, they only need meat, bone and organ. Their digestive systems are not built to process whole vegetables (some feed veggie glop), corn, grains or various fillers that commercial food includes. The information I have provided below is based on the frankenprey model and I expect there will be some disagreement to it but it is ONE way to feed (and the one I feel is the most natural).

 

So here we go...

 

You want to feed 2-3% of your dogs IDEAL adult body weight. There is a handy calculator here... http://www.raw4dogs.com/calculate.htm You may want to start at 2% and adjust as necessary. I know it really doesn't sound like a lot of food and it may not LOOK like a lot but remember they are getting everything they need with this diet, without fillers, vegetables and grains.

 

You want to stick around 80% meat, 10% EDIBLE bone, 5% liver and 5% other organ (this can be adjusted as you learn what your hound tolerates comfortably). Stomach/tripe, heart, gizzards and tongue are considered meat, as they are truly muscles (the white tripe you find in the grocery, honeycomb tripe, is bleached and processed and is NOT suitable to feed). All other organs - brain, lung, pancreas, kidney, gullet, spleen, trachea, etc - are the other 5% of the organs. If you feed a very bony meal today, (large turkey legs for example) feed an all meat meal tomorrow. If they are getting too much bone, you will know by their poop (see below and YES, you need to watch their poop!). It's not a concern, you just need to adjust the diet a bit for a day or two. The 80/10/5/5 is simply a guide. Some dogs need 20% bone because they have consistently soft stools. You will know what looks correct with just a bit of time. Beef, bison, elk and similar animals' bones are too dense and are not considered edible. they simply cause tooth damage.

 

Most people start with chicken as it is easily digested and affordable. Stay away from enhanced meat as it has added sodium. Plain old chicken has about 90 grams sodium in it which is acceptable. Enhanced meat will have several hundred more and can cause loose stool and sometimes vomiting in some dogs. Some are not bothered by it tho. Throw your dog a chicken quarter or bone-in breast and stand back and watch. Some dogs don't realize it is food and may lick it, play with it or bury it. Let them have it for 15-20 minutes. If they don't it eat, pick it up and save it til the next meal and repeat. By the third time they WILL eat it (and will not starve in the meantime). As you may know, dogs digestion starts in the stomach, not the mouth like ours does, so some may chew, chew and swallow it almost whole but don't worry. It will either stay down or they will yack it back up and try again. Stick with chicken for 2-3 weeks but follow BMs. They may have runny stools or stools with a bit of mucous at the very start as their bodies get used to a new diet but it should clear up within a few days. If it continues longer, fast for a day and start over. BMs should be firm and small. They will most likely have fewer BMs too so don't be alarmed if they don't poop for a day or two.

 

By this time, you may be noticing changes in them...fresher breath, less itching and scratching and coats may look better. Yes, it really DOES happen in just a couple weeks.

 

Once they are doing fine with chicken, try a new protein; pork maybe. Buy a pork picnic, a huge one, and cut it appropriate sizes and toss it down. By now they know it is food and their jaws have become stronger so they will have a fun time chewing it up. Some dogs are gulpers and some, like Piper, eat like a lady. Feed pork for 2 weeks then introduce a new protein like turkey (which, by the way, IS different than chicken).

 

After about 5-6 weeks of their first raw food, start adding some organ meat but in SMALL amounts. Liver is very rich and can cause loose stools if given too much too soon. Some people feed organ and/or liver every day, some every other day, some a couple days a week. Its not a life or death situation to feed EXACTLY 10% organ. I usually feed liver for maybe 5 days then some other organ for 5 days then back to liver; sometimes Piper doesn't get any organ for a week, it just depends on what I grab out of the freezer. Its really up to you and variety is created over time. Don't feel like you need to feed 80/10/5/5 every meal.

 

Now you repeat with a new protein. You can feed pretty much any animal under the sun, including fish. Feel free to feed chicken and pork in the same meal, it doesn't hurt. Mix and match your proteins.

 

You do not need to supplement with anything expect possibly fish body oil but make sure it does not have soy in it as some pets are very sensitive to it.

 

So, to sum it up...open refrigerator, remove chicken quarter, toss to dog, dog eats. End of story. Yes, it is that simple.

 

 

Now on to the FUN stuff!!

 

Some good reading material when you have the time...

http://www.dogtorj.net/id51.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html VERY good info

http://rawfed.com/myths/honest.html

http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

http://rawfeddogs.net/

http://www.bornfreeusa.org/facts.php?p=359&more=1

http://www.rawlearning.com/supplementmyths.html

 

I belong to several groups related to raw feeding and cat and dog nutrition and health issues. The ones I suggest are..

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/ any topic on raw, including health, nutrition, vaccines, training, etc.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/ sticks strictly to raw diet/nutrition; very busy board

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturallyGrey/

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawFedSighthounds/

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/SighthoundsNaturally/ these last 3 are not very busy boards but are greyhound specific

 

Ways to save money...

Do you know any hunters? You will get a gold mines worth of food from hunting that will make me insanely jealous. Check out the supermarket ads, find out when your store reduces their meat for expiration and hit the store then. Try Sam's and WalMart but beware of the enhanced meat, most of theirs is. I found tongue and heart at WalMart tho. There are hundreds of raw food co-ops in the states that offer a large variety of raw food and natural treats. Try http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/ to see what is in your area or do a google search. Many people post to Craig's List of their local Freecycle board asking for unwanted or freezer burned meat and they are successful in getting hundreds of pounds.

 

This is a lot of information to process but just try it. I am 100% confident your grey will take to it immediately, any allergies WILL improve, it is not awfully expensive and I promise you it is NOT difficult to do. Feel free to ask me any questions. I am not saying I am an expert by any means but I have been feeding Piper raw for over 2 years, did a LOT of reading on it, follow my lists every day and feel that I have a lot of knowledge about it. ITS EASY!!! Remember, just ditch that crappy kibble one day and toss a chicken quarter and you will see....

 

Sandra in FL

 

[Guest RWM]

Thanks for the effort, Sandra. I'll contribute when and where I can.

[Guest mcsheltie]

We have raw fed for over ten years. I went to part kibble when I started showing dogs professionally. My dogs stay with friends when I am on the road and a lot aren't comfortable feeding raw or don't have the freezer space to put my dog's meals in. Our cats are still raw fed, I make a balanced daily diet for them. The dogs we use the balance over time method.

 

For those who would like assistance or want to know "for sure" that they are feeding a balanced diet contact Monica Segal. Two years ago I had her make a month feeding plan. I have a list of food and supplements. Like -- 3 turkey necks, 2 oz beef liver, 12 eggs, 5 lbs ground turkey, 30 1000 mg salmon oil capsules etc... then I feed everything on the list during each month. Takes all the guess work out of it and you can keep an eye out for bargains.

 

She will also make home cooked plans or raw plans for a week or daily if you prefer. She specializes in dogs with health problems; cancer, diabetes, liver & kidney diets etc...

 

We were feeding raw during the last major food recall. That was great for my peace of mind.

[Guest Gert]

For those who would like assistance or want to know "for sure" that they are feeding a balanced diet contact Monica Segal. Two years ago I had her make a month feeding plan. I have a list of food and supplements. Like -- 3 turkey necks, 2 oz beef liver, 12 eggs, 5 lbs ground turkey, 30 1000 mg salmon oil capsules etc... then I feed everything on the list during each month. Takes all the guess work out of it and you can keep an eye out for bargains.

 

I've been thinking about going raw, or at least partially raw. I'd be interested to see Monica's plans, but, I don't know who she is. Is she on GT??

 

To the OP, thanks for all the links!

[Guest RWM]

If you had to place a preference on raw ground beef, lamb, chicken, turkey, bison, and duck, assuming your hound is healthy and enjoys all of the foregoing, would you have any preference, and why?

[Guest Dragonmom]

thanks for posting this, i have been thinking about going raw for the past couple of weeks.

[nettles]

 

We have started one of our pups with beginning signs of elevated kidney values on a raw diet ( mostly raw tripe) and taking him off kibble hopefully to help his kidneys. It is our understanding that we need to watch the amount of phosphorus in his diet. Aren't bones high in Phosphorus?

 

Rich

[Guest mcsheltie]

We have started one of our pups with beginning signs of elevated kidney values on a raw diet ( mostly raw tripe) and taking him off kibble hopefully to help his kidneys. It is our understanding that we need to watch the amount of phosphorus in his diet. Aren't bones high in Phosphorus?

 

Rich

 

No, meat contains Phos (and of course protein). Bones contain Calcium. Bones & connective tissue contain minerals. Organs are where the vitamins are found. This of course is the simplistic version. But it is the reason behind the equation 80/10/5/5 that Sandra (the OP) posted. Different types of meat have different Phos content. So you would want to find foods that were lower in Phos. There is a free program that has the nutritional content of almost everything under the sun. Unfortunately I lost the program when my computer crashed the last time. For instance they have values for a cup of ground cooked turkey and a cup of gr raw turkey. Cooking does change some of the nutrients. Also one of the lists Sandra posted would be able to help you. Or Monica Segal (who I keep mentioning, as she is the guru of canine nutrition)

 

I have had three cats, one was in renal failure and two had VERY bad blood work. All three turned around on raw. And lived into their late teens. Now I am not saying it is a wonder cure all, but my vet was against raw feeding. And when she saw the blood work for those three cats, she changed her mind. She said it was impossible for the numbers to improve like they did.

[Guest mcsheltie]

If you had to place a preference on raw ground beef, lamb, chicken, turkey, bison, and duck, assuming your hound is healthy and enjoys all of the foregoing, would you have any preference, and why?

 

I would go with what is plentiful in your area. And what is affordable. You can balance a diet around any meat source. Stuff like rabbit & bison can be expensive. I feed some variety, but I keep several protein and carb sources on the side, so to speak. The reason is if your dog develops a food allergy you want to have somewhere to go. If you have fed everything at one time or another, you will be in trouble. I would only feed proteins & carbs that your dog has already been exposed to in his kibble. Which now days can be a lot. Some kibbles have everything plus the kitchen sink in them. If your dog has never had lamb, fish, duck or rabbit, save a couple in case you need them in the future. Nothing worse than finding out you can only feed Emu at $20/lb plus shipping

[Guest mcsheltie]

For those who would like assistance or want to know "for sure" that they are feeding a balanced diet contact Monica Segal. Two years ago I had her make a month feeding plan. I have a list of food and supplements. Like -- 3 turkey necks, 2 oz beef liver, 12 eggs, 5 lbs ground turkey, 30 1000 mg salmon oil capsules etc... then I feed everything on the list during each month. Takes all the guess work out of it and you can keep an eye out for bargains.

 

I've been thinking about going raw, or at least partially raw. I'd be interested to see Monica's plans, but, I don't know who she is. Is she on GT??

 

To the OP, thanks for all the links!

 

Monica Segal is the guru of canine nutrition - link Her books & booklets are very helpful too. The newest book has the nutrient content of a lot of commonly used raw foods. Plus diet plans.

 

Thanks for the topic Sandra. I haven't talked about raw feeding for quite a while. It is fun

 

Julie

[Guest Ola]

I definitely agree with the original post (not so much with the follow-ups suggesting that you need someone to design a diet for your dog, IMO that's not necessary for the vast majority of dogs). It does take some reading to learn the "rules" but the guide above is a great start. Just don't over-complicate it. Some people go crazy with supplements and veggies when they start because, surely, it can't be that easy right? It's just not necessary unless your dog has a specific health issue you are addressing.

 

Regarding which proteins to feed, I think that red meat is more appropriate, in part because today's chicken and turkey have been so ridiculously over-bred to have lots of white meat and be milder that they aren't much like the bird that your dog might have hunted down in the wild. I think an ideal raw diet would have at least 3-4 different proteins, unless you have a dog with serious food allergies of course.

Edited November 4, 2009 by Ola

[Guest mcsheltie]

I definitely agree with the original post (not so much with the follow-ups suggesting that you need someone to design a diet for your dog,

 

 

That wasn't my intent. Sorry I wasn't clear. We raw fed for eight years before I had Monica do a diet plan for us. I do not think you need someone to design a diet either. That said, even after eight years of doing a lot of research on canine & feline nutrition, our consultation taught me a lot.

 

Over the years I have met a lot of people who would like to feed raw, but are afraid to try without some guidance. My intent was to let folks know she is out there.

 

 

[Guest kahjul]

I had never heard of feeding raw before finding this site. I don't consider myself an expert on dog foods, but I'm certainly not an idiot. I worked for both Hills and Nutro for several years (in their sales departments, so I may be brainwashed). Anyways, I am starting my grey on a partailly raw diet because I can't get to the other side of her tummy issues. I'm not ready to committ 100%, but my question is, does raw food work equally well on all breeds or is this a 'hound' thing? Will my 7 yo lab be able to convert?

[Guest Ola]

No, it's definitely not a greyhound thing. I have a greyhound and a norwegian elkhound mix and they both do awesome on raw. If you look at some of the links in the original post you won't actually find that many greyhound owners there (except for the greyhound and sighthound lists of course).

[Guest RWM]

I'm not ready to committ 100%, but my question is, does raw food work equally well on all breeds or is this a 'hound' thing? Will my 7 yo lab be able to convert?

 

I first learned about raw feeding from a friend of mine who breeds and shows Rhodesian Ridgebacks. He told me about a butcher, Armellinos, who prepares and sells raw meats only for dogs and cats. I started going there for my hounds. The shop has a gallery of pictures of dogs that use raw food .... all kinds of dogs .... and lots of show dogs. When I saw how many professional breeders use the diet, I became convinced that it worked. Coincidentally, my vet has a grey and gets her raw food at Armellinos.

 

[Guest greyhound9797]

I hope that I answered some questions that you may have about feeding raw and I am sure that I created some questions in your mind, too. For some reason people who feed raw find it exciting and fun. I'm not sure why but when a diet discussion comes up I can't wait to talk about raw! When on kibble, Piper was never food motivated; now she prances while waiting for dinner and eats with gusto. Just that enthusiasm makes me confident that I am doing the right thing for her.

 

To comment on mcshelties post...the owner of the place I get my raw from contacted Monica who created a diet that consists of ground beef, chicken, turkey, tripe, mackeral and chicken feet. It may contain all the nutrients required in one meal but I don't believe in feeding ground for a couple reasons...it doesn't provide the mental stimulation that is natural in eating a raw animal or provide the dental workout when eating raw bones. When I used to feed ground Piper would gobble it up in 10 seconds and look at me like "Okay, where's the rest of my dinner??". I think ground is more of a BARF idea while I adhere to and believe more in a whole prey/frankenprey diet. To each his own...if you are feeding raw, your dogs are getting the best they can.

 

In response to RWM regarding what to feed...like I mentioned above, I wouldn't feed ground. If I had a choice between beef, lamb, chicken, turkey, bison, and duck...hmmm...beef is obviously a great red meat and Piper loves anything beef. Contrary to the ads you see on TV, pork is another red meat and is more reasonably priced than beef so that is on the menu a lot. Piper wouldn't touch the lamb I gave her. Chicken is great and cheap so I buy a lot of that. I feel the bones in turkey wings and legs are a bit much but it's another reasonably priced protein. Bison and duck would be an awesome addition because I have never fed them but they are expensive (I am in Florida so bison is not readily available). Like mcsheltie said...go with what is readily available and within your budget. Raw doesn't have to be expensive unless you feed grass fed, free range organic meat.

 

To answer kahjul's question asking if raw feeding is just a grey thing...absolutely not!!! I first learned about it from my pet sitter who feeds a burnese mountain dog and a mastiff. I had 2 of my 4 cats on raw (long story but none are on raw now), members of my co-op feed everything from chihuahuas to shepards. ANY breed of dog or cat will benefit from the raw diet.

 

I could go on and on about this topic (yes, it DOES excite me!!) but I will stop now. If you have any questions feel free to email me at piperspetsittingservice.com. I hope those of you that are leaning towards raw will find the confidence to go all the way. It is scary at first but once you see your hound munching on a raw chicken quarter you will be as excited as I am.

 

Sandra in FL

[sweetdogs]

Aren't bones high in Phosphorus?

I believe they are. When my elderly kitteh was having some renal issues, I did stop feeding bones & used ground eggshell powder as his calcium source. If your pup is just in the initial stages & you want to feed bones, you can use ground eggshell powder to bind with the phosphorus. You'll know you're giving too much of it by his poop being too dry.

 

If you haven't seen it, I like this page on feeding for kidney patients: kidney disease.

[Guest mcsheltie]

Aren't bones high in Phosphorus?

 

Here is what I could find in the short time that I have right now-

 

100 gram serving of chuck roast (beef, no bones) has 7 mg CA and 222 mg Phos

100 gr of white turkey meat has 13 mg CA and 186 mg Phos

 

Since I lost my nutritbase program the only stats I can find for bones are listed as % Here are a couple:

turkey neck - 1.54% CA and .78% Phos

chicken back - 1.08% CA and .97% Phos

 

Even tho they are calculated differently you can see that muscle meat has a high content of Phos. RMBs have a ratio that is close to the correct ratio of 1.2-2 to 1 (CA to Phos)

 

Does this help?

[Guest sja5032]

what is the difference between feeding raw & cooked? DBF gets free meat from a local supermarket (stuff after sell by date, emphasis on sell by, therefore still usable, we've eaten it ourselves) but he refused the idea of feeding it raw to humor him I cook it. I understand the dental/mental stimulation but I am wondering about nutritional difference.

[nettles]

Aren't bones high in Phosphorus?

 

Here is what I could find in the short time that I have right now-

 

100 gram serving of chuck roast (beef, no bones) has 7 mg CA and 222 mg Phos

100 gr of white turkey meat has 13 mg CA and 186 mg Phos

 

Since I lost my nutritbase program the only stats I can find for bones are listed as % Here are a couple:

turkey neck - 1.54% CA and .78% Phos

chicken back - 1.08% CA and .97% Phos

 

Even tho they are calculated differently you can see that muscle meat has a high content of Phos. RMBs have a ratio that is close to the correct ratio of 1.2-2 to 1 (CA to Phos)

 

Does this help?

 

 

Are 222 mg and 186 mg high amounts per serving??

 

 

Rich

[Guest mcsheltie]

Aren't bones high in Phosphorus?

 

Here is what I could find in the short time that I have right now-

 

100 gram serving of chuck roast (beef, no bones) has 7 mg CA and 222 mg Phos

100 gr of white turkey meat has 13 mg CA and 186 mg Phos

 

Since I lost my nutritbase program the only stats I can find for bones are listed as % Here are a couple:

turkey neck - 1.54% CA and .78% Phos

chicken back - 1.08% CA and .97% Phos

 

Even tho they are calculated differently you can see that muscle meat has a high content of Phos. RMBs have a ratio that is close to the correct ratio of 1.2-2 to 1 (CA to Phos)

 

Does this help?

 

 

Are 222 mg and 186 mg high amounts per serving??

 

 

Rich

 

No, these would be below the daily requirement of Phos. I posted the numbers so you could see the difference in muscle meat vs RMBs.

 

I fed my cats in renal failure ground turkey with egg shells (with supplements like fish oil, kelp etc... to balance the diet) and they all did really well. With the cats that had blood work numbers starting to rise (you wouldn't say they had kidney disease) I just feeding raw, no special diet and the blood work got better.

 

A healthy 60 lb dog requires 2700 mg of Phos daily and 3545 mg of CA. And will eat about 1 1/2 lb of food per day.

 

The easy way to find a good kidney diet would be to look on the lists that Sandra posted and find out what others have fed. Then I would look the values up on the USDA web site to make sure you have gotten good advice. So much on the web can be bunk. I am still trying to find the program that crashed with my computer.

 

Other tips for kidney diets are to use fish body oils, not plant based oil. Decrease sodium. Feed high biological value proteins. Eggs are first on the list, fish follows that and I can't remember the rest off the top of my head. But that can be found on the web. CoQ10 has been shown to reduce creatinine in humans.

Edited November 5, 2009 by mcsheltie

[Guest Ola]

Some more info on kidney disease - including some informative links and recommendations:

http://dogaware.com/kidney.html

[Guest greyhound9797]

what is the difference between feeding raw & cooked? DBF gets free meat from a local supermarket (stuff after sell by date, emphasis on sell by, therefore still usable, we've eaten it ourselves) but he refused the idea of feeding it raw to humor him I cook it. I understand the dental/mental stimulation but I am wondering about nutritional difference.

 

HUGE difference! Once you cook food you remove a lot of the nutrients. One way you can compare the values is to visit http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

Type in raw chicken breast, choose the top selection then 100 grams. In another window type in chicken breast, choose roasted, then 100 grams and you can see the difference. Domestic dogs are only .02% genetically different from wolves and you don't see wolves roasting their chickens over campfires.

 

Sandra in FL

[Guest kahjul]

so help me out with what to expect in the beginning. Tues. pm I gave each dog (7yo lab and 9 mo grey) 1 raw drumstick for dinner. Lab went, chew chew gulp. Grey threw it up in the air and ran around the yard with it. Finally settled down to eating it. I wanted to go slow, so no raw for a couple nights. Last night we had a repeat-to the letter. About 2 am lab barfed up a small amount of kibble with some apple in it-the apple concerns me because I know she hasn't eaten any since Tues morning. She seems otherwise fine, but there isn't much poop in the backyard-should I be concerned?

[Guest Ola]

A drumstick IMO is way too small, especially to feed as their whole dinner. The vomit may have to do with their tummies being pretty empty. Go for a chicken leg quarter (drumstick and thigh, with a piece of back all attached) - it will need more chewing. For my 75 lb grey I'd feed 2-3 chicken quarters in a day, which works out to about 1 per meal if you feed twice daily, depending on the size of the piece.

 

The lack of poop may have to do with the fact that there isn't really much to poop out after raw (since there's no fillers). Plus the bone will help make poops smaller and more compact. We experienced the same "pooping delay" when we switched to raw.